How to Fix DWTS – An Open Letter to Producers (Part 3)
This post is part 3 of a new series where I basically tell the producers of DWTS how they should change the show – it’s for their own good. 
If you want to read parts 1 and 2, you can find them here:
A reminder for those easily induced into righteous indignation – this is NOT about the various couples but about the JUDGES and the Producers – I’ve provided examples of problems that I remember from season to season. If you get your knickers in a twist about Melissa or Shawn or Mya or Nicole or Maria, I’m not going to waste time arguing with you, I’m going to call you names (maybe to myself, maybe publicly - we’ll see) and then ignore you. Keep it on topic. And by all means – if you remember other instances of fishiness, feel free to share. I can’t guarantee we will agree, but I would be interested to hear.
Dear DWTS Producers (cont.)
We’ve talked all about the stupid scoring methods the judges have, although not really touching on how much you producers influence that scoring. It’s really hard to say what is Len being an ass and what is producer directed underscoring with the goal of drama, making it a horse race or holding on to the contestants who grab viewers attention, albeit not necessarily actual votes. Who’s doing it and their ultimate goal? Don’t know, kinda care, really wish you would CUT IT OUT. I think it’s obvious. One only has to compare how Len scored Shawn, Nicole and Mya to see a pretty distinct pattern. I didn’t look much farther than those three, initially, but after my last posting I had to look at another talented dancer, Jennifer Grey. Jennifer didn’t suffer from the same scoring bullshit as the other three ladies. Why? Well, my guess is that she wasn’t anywhere close to “guaranteed” win (in the producers and judges eyes, mind you) that the other ladies were. She was 50 years old at the time and had some rather serious medical issues – almost didn’t dance in the finale, if you recall. Falsely crapping on her dances would seem…well, heartless. She started the show as the sympathetic character with a very nostalgic feel. The other pseudo ringer that season was Brandy – she learned to dance for a movie, like Jennifer, and went to a performing arts high school – like Jennifer. Keeping in mind that I haven’t seen her dances since her season aired, you will note that she was getting consistently beaten by Jennifer in scoring up until week 5, when she beat Jennifer. She also beat Jennifer in week 6, then tied her in weeks 7 and 8, before being eliminated. I’m tempted to say that she had the Len curse that season….but since I haven’t watched the dances in a while I can’t really make the call. Looks like it though.
Brooke and Kristi were the high scorers nearly every week they were on the show, season 5 was all over the place, and Gilles seemed destined to win season 8, which leads me to believe that this little game didn’t really start happening until after that season. Were they getting tired of sure things, even though Gilles ended up not winning? Decided to make the game more interesting? Totally pissed that Shawn won and Gilles/Melissa didn’t? I wish they would quit it. It’s always nice to have excitement on a show, but not at the expense of reality.
Season 12 was weird. Looking at the scoring for that season and it seemed like it really WAS a horse race, for a little while. Ralph was kicking butt the first few weeks, before they started tanking him and propping up Chelsea. Why? Who knows. She is “family” in that she worked on a Disney program. That season was a mystery. Seasons 13 and 14 also were more about over-scoring not great dancers than intentionally underscoring someone to make things interesting – as discussed in parts 1 and 2. There was no huge ringer that Len felt he had to keep down, but they did work to keep certain people around. I think that Maria, and occasionally Katherine, were overscored Season 14…and we all remember the William lovefest. :::shiver::: They always showed Kirstie a lot of love, giving her a much easier time than they did others that weren’t quite so popular. It all comes to the same end, doesn’t it?? Messing around with the scoring for the sake of some other agenda.
Agendas. That leads me to my next topic.
Quit tinkering with the rules/themes/scoring during the season, damn it!!
I can’t be the only person who watches the show who suspects your constant changing of the rules and the season progresses can I?? And actually, I *know* you did it this past season because you weren’t even subtle about it. Plus I hear things.
You hear lots about DWTS being “fixed” mainly because you DO change the rules or add elements during the season. Even if that isn’t your intent, it IS the end result because it just looks bad. It’s like having an election and one person is winning…but you don’t like that person or don’t want them to advance, so you added “special scoring” to reward the better contender. Oh. Wait. You already did that for Chelsea Kane!!
How do you NOT understand how that looks? Maybe you don’t care…but you all were the ones whining about the sagging ratings at TCA not that long ago. You think we just want “bad” dancing as much as good dancing?? Are you frickin’ crazy?? People want to see the journey, they want to see people learn and they want to see dancing. Sure, there’s a trainwreck element to it at times, but if people really wanted to see “bad” dancing, the bad dancers would last longer (without help from the judges) than they do. That you even spout that we want to see bad dancing rather confirms my theory on your tinkering with the judges scores, doesn’t it? Yes. It does. Seriously – did it ever occur to you that we see what you’re doing and are tired of the bullshit and are just turning the channel??
Of course, this is only my opinion, but I think you’ve forgotten that your viewers aren’t total morons. Of course, there are a few in every crowd, but by and large – no, we are not morons. So quit acting like we are and maybe you’ll see an improvement in ratings. Although it may be too late for that, and same day viewing for the networks is down across the board. But hey, you can stop the slide, if you want. Take an honest look at what you *appeared* to do just this last season alone.
- You tinkered with the number of points to be awarded for one couple for the group dance – then copped out completely and gave it to Kirstie, which only Kirstie fans believed. I heard several different numbers floated around before you settled on 2. I have to wonder if there was some kind of argument back stage (or if you were listening to twitter), because deciding on 2 points and then giving them to Kirstie does absolutely NOTHING other than to make Kirstie feel good. It did nothing to “save” anyone – although it might have saved Sabrina, unless you knew that 2 points wouldn’t be enough for her. But why Kirstie?? She stuck around for two weeks after that.
- You gave the new dances styles with a theme in week 9, which is fine. And it might have been that way all along. But then you told Derek and Shawn they couldn’t use *anything* from the Knight Rider (maybe you should have checked on that detail earlier?). So, in this case, are you handicapping….or just sloppy?? Most of your viewers understand copyright infringement – but I think they would also expect you to check on that before you hand out that particular style.
- Yes, the bunch of so-called crazy dance styles/themes for week 9 would have been fine, if not for one couple getting the hustle and one couple getting Lindy Hop – two dances that HAVE been done on DWTS before, compared with Jazz and Bhangra, the latter having never even been heard of before. Which also had a theme that was made impossible, as outlined above. Luckily, Derek is a genius…if it had been anyone else, it could have gotten ugly. Instead we got my favorite dance of the season. Oh, and Flamenco, which was just a barely disguised Paso when done by Kelly and Val. So, really, it was only Apolo and Karina that got screwed. Nice.
- You did a similar thing in Week 4, handing out contemporary and Bollywood with the likes of Mambo and Jitterbug. Good thing you had contestants pick for each other, since it hardly seems fair to hand some pros dances they know and others dances they’ve got no clue about. It’s still not fair, but at least YOU don’t get to choose who’s doing what. Or do you…
- The instant dance?? What a freakin’ farce. A little birdie tells me that it was originally supposed to be a choice between any of the 10 “regular” dances (waltz, tango, foxtrot, quickstep, V. waltz, cha cha, samba, rumba, paso doble, or jive), but you copped out and picked samba, Cha Cha and Jive. Knowing perfectly well, of course, that Melissa was doing samba for her regular dance that week. Why did only Melissa get a dance that she did the night before (not to mention being the only celeb to do a single dance style THREE times during the course of the show)? Not only that, but Kelly got Jive which she did as Trio earlier in the season, and Shawn got Cha Cha which was done with the country theme – so both had to come up with NEW choreo, where as Melissa could (and did) recycle. She had the ability to recycle all three styles; her samba and jive were regular dances and her cha cha was part of a fusion with Tango where Tony didn’t actually fuse the two styles, he did one then the other. No, you don’t rig the show at all! Then, to top it off, the ball breaks open as Melissa is going to choose. Not only have those little mirror balls never broken open before (seems most have a hard time opening them), but every time they’ve had to pick before in that season, they were always half-mirror balls that were face down. Why the switch?? Unless of course you wanted Melissa to do Samba since it would be (supposedly) easiest for her. Kinda funny that she STILL blew it…but the judges took care of that with their scoring.
- That little birdy?? Also told me that Melissa’s country dance was originally “Home” by Blake Shelton – which would be a Rumba. She was overheard talking about it during Country Group rehearsals. Same week that Sabrina KILLED her rumba. No matter, no worries – we’ll just switch what Melissa is dancing. Kirstie danced to Home that week. Odd. Wonder which dancer they were trying to help, Sabrina or Melissa?? Or Kirstie? Kinda similar situation to the one where NONE of Derek’s fans believed he would ever dance that Quickstep a 3rd time for the finale. He’s never done a dance three times in one season as part of the competition (and has said it’s a bad idea). And it was a rule breaker. Most people who have been fans of Derek’s for YEARS expected him to pick the one dance that he didn’t get to do with Shawn – which, coincidentally, is some of his best choreography – the Paso/Tango fusion. Then there’s the fact that Henry told After Buzz earlier in the week that Derek and Shawn were dancing the Fusion. But no – it didn’t happen. Derek – arguably the smartest pro on the show for how it works – pick the rule breaking quickstep to dance a 3rd time. And gets docked again. Gee, that’s not funky at ALL.
- In that same vein, I expect you want us to believe that Shawn, Melissa and Kelly ALL decided to pick their week 3 dances in the finale. Just a coincidence? Just like during season 11 when all three couples picked Argentine Tango?? Well, that season made a bit more sense in that all three dances were amazing – but this season? Yeaaah…no.
The last few seasons you’ve thrown in curve balls at seemingly the last minute and it appears to many that you do it in order to benefit one couple over the others. Like throwing in an extra 15 points that Chelsea Kane was almost guaranteed to get. Your viewers aren’t stupid. A lot of them aren’t paying as close attention as we are and might not sit back and go “WTF?” But those that are?? I wonder if they’re still watching the show? With Derek possibly (hopefully) not coming back, I wouldn’t be watching the show – but I like mocking it. Yes, you have reached the same level as The Bachelor – to be watched and mocked. And to create cool drinking games.
You want to avoid the feeling that the show is fixed?? You should, since I think it results in many people just changing the channel. Yes, the whining about ratings is a bit stupid, since ALL TV is down across the board (check out AI’s ratings for their premiere) and you still have a top 10 show. But you used to have a Top 5 show that occasionally hit number one. Not so much any more. You want to change course?? Remember – perception is reality. What you “intend” doesn’t matter as much as how people perceive it. If they perceive what you’re doing is “fixing” in favor of a particular couple and not making changes for some other, more pragmatic reason? Then you’re the one with the problem at the end of the day. And it’s your own fault cuz you want everything to be “shocking”. Get over it.
Here’s an idea. You’ve been on the air for 15 season. Take a hard look at everything you’ve done and take what seems to have worked well. Lay out Season 16 – all of it. The dances, the scoring, the themes (if you must), the team dances, the group dances, etc. Then put it ALL in a pre-season press kit or press release so everyone can see it. And then, most important of all – DON’T MESS WITH IT. Stick with the plan. If you find a show is running short and you need to throw in a group dance like you did this past season? Fine. But DO NOT change the rules constantly throughout the season. You think it’s fun to keep the celebs and the pros on their toes?? The celebs have never danced before – at least not ballroom – they are already on their toes!! As for the pros – you’re not doing them any favors, you’re just risking burnout and injury. This belief that we want to see bad dancing? Wrong. We might find it amusing for a week or two, but then we want to see great dancing. We want to see people improve and grow. And all the other great elements of the show. Hire people for the show and LET THEM DANCE. Score them fairly. Don’t keep changing the rules….and don’t manipulate what the audience sees and hears to get a particular outcome.
But we’ll talk about that in part 4.
Thanks Vogue!
I couldn’t agree more with all you have said, miss Heidi! Thank you for taking the time to express what many of us feel. Personally, apart from what you have pointed out, I feel really upset when I hear derogatory comments from the judges (even if not openly so), like what Len said to Lil Kim after her Pasodoble (I was expecting Oh,no but I got Olé). Or the Bleak house comment to Derek and Shawn. He is entitled to his opninion but he should just criticise the technique or the style…He should respect the contestant’s efforts, even when they fail to achieve his standards.
This is the best thing ever. Totally agree with all of the above
Very well said! How many parts of this do you think there is going to be?
I like the ideas in final paragraphs about laying out publicly all rules, dances, formats etc before the season starts and then truly sticking to the plan for the same reasons I like your dance syllabus/scoring ideas.
Keep the show “legit” and ratings may improve; the drama will emerge naturally and won’t need to be manufactured IMO.
Yes. ITA. IMO, the single worst case of manipulation was poor Ralph in season 12. It was obvious to me that TPTB were trying to protect Chelsea and Romeo to bring in a younger demographic. And that Ralph was considered expendable, since he had the same demo as Kirstie.
It’s time for consistent scoring, based on a syllabus, And you’re right, the rules, dances, & themes (ugh) need to be published up front. Also, I still contend that any return to consistent scoring and judging HAS TO include new judges – as you say, perception is reality. And you have wondered on Pure before whether it’s the judges or TPTB. Again, IMO -but the perception is that the 3 Stooges are manipulating the course of the competition. I think they’ve GOT to go.
Wow Melissa did not get to dance the one dance she said was her toughest dance and lowest scoring dance of her first season, the rumba? Guess they wanted Melissa that much? Sadly seems like the producers do not see what is wrong. Even the ladies at after buzz saw the pimping for Melissa and called tptb getting Melissa the win.
I’ve been waiting for part 3 forever!!!
All I can say is the fact that there was an agenda became so obvious this past season that it was painful to watch. Obviously it had happened before. Definitely with Nicole, maybe so with Brandy, that collective orgy every time Levy BREATHED was nauseating, same whenever Gilles danced, until all of a sudden the judges started picking on him and he was gone right away…UGHHHHHH the producer who said people just want to see bad dancing is either REALLY that IGNANT (yes, I said “ignant”) or TPTB know they screwed themselves and just don’t want to admit it!
And does anyone else think Tom Bergeron is on our side (lol) and kind of slyly tips the producers’ agenda to the audience, intentionally or otherwise? Because I remember when Brandy was eliminated, he was really sad and asked her if she’d come back and perform her freestyle in the finale and she said yes, but then she and Maks ended up doing their quickstep.
I remembered that when I thought about when they were picking their instant dances in All-Stars, he looked right into the camera and not-so-subtly said “ALL right, gotta try and close up this ball because SOMEHOW it fell open!” While he had those “please notice something is fishy” eye action going…
Could be 4 parts, could be 5. We’ll have to wait and see.
Sally, I go back and forth and I think it might be BOTH, at different times. The producers have certain people they want to stick around for a while…but the judges also have a stake in certain people doing well. It is supposed to be at least a pseudo dance show after all. I think those two sides often clash and you see something like this past season…and you see good dancers going home earlier than they should on a somewhat regular basis. Chynna, Kristin, Brandy, Sabrina, Audrina. The “conventional wisdom” is that they didn’t have the fanbase. Maybe not, but ask yourself this: if the judges were doing THEIR job and giving someone like Bristol (who got a 28 out of a possible 40 the week Audrina was eliminated) or Rob/Nancy/Chaz/Carson (all but Chaz scored in the 20′s the weeks Kristin and Chynna went home – and Rob did NOT start out that good) scores that were more realistic when compared to other dancers, would they have been eliminated?? I think maybe not so early. People are fond of commenting on dancers fanbases – but that is still only HALF the equation. If the judges are gutless about using the 4 and 5 paddles, then good dancers will go home and people will change the channel.
Never danced the rumba and got to dance Samba three times. Very curious how they decided who picked first too. Don’t remember what the points were after week 9, if Shawn was in first place. I guess she must have been, since when the show ended Melissa only beat Shawn by a point in the total points and a TENTH of a point in the average.
Excellent post! I highly agree. One of my favorite things about DWTS (yes, I still find things good about it lol) is that there are times when you see legit growth and improvement. You see a journey. Whether it be a nervous, low self-esteem actress slowly but surely gain her wings and improve week after week or simply a lovable football player having a blast with his partner week after week and just enjoying himself, I think THAT’S what people want to see. There are so many journeys and true “stories” that will come from the couples themselves, the producers should NOT need to intervene to make one (besides they suck
). DWTS seemed to be getting better and better for a while, because the producers weren’t screwing around with the formula too much. The crazy themes, rules, and scoring can just get seriously ridiculous. There are times where they work well (classical night, story night [generally], movie night) but there are MANY times when the theme is just totally forgettable or is plain awful (American week…rock week…*shudder*)
Anyways, great post. Hope the producers take heed. The only issue is that I think it was season 10 where all of the finalists picked their Argentine tangos. Nicole, Evan, and Erin wasn’t it? I think season 11 was when Jennifer picked her Viennese waltz and Kyle and Bristol both picked their tango.
PH (# 8) – Yes,I can see your point. I guess I’m just more of a conspiracy theorist…
I think that at the end of the day, TPTB have (or had) some notion of what people would keep eyeballs on televisions, and were playing puppet-master to the hilt in order to drive up ad revenue. The comments from the ABC prez talking about trying to “draw the younger viewers” (or words to that effect) just reinforced that notion for me.
To your point about Bristol – I absolutely, completely agree. She got higher scores than she deserved. I just think the puppet-masters (TPTB) are driving the over and under scoring, just to drive up the drama, and to “engineer” the viewing audience. And I’m completely with you, this needs to stop, or the ratings will (IMO) continue to tank.
But to my “the 3 Stooges need to go” point – If I’m wrong, and it partially IS the judges, then that makes me think even more that Larry, Moe, and Curly need to exit the building. I’ll grant you that in my book, they’re damned either way – they are either puppets, with the perception that they’re responsible (in which case they need to go), or they are actually partially responsible – in which case they need to go…
Well done once again Miss Heidi and I couldn’t agree more!!!!! Thank you!!
Please producers and judges, I realize you think you know what’s best, but, please stop underscoring some couples while overscoring others all for a story line and ratings. It’s sad how some people didn’t make it and for those who did after and when you started to play with scoring.
I don’t think it was fixed for Melissa to win. It wasn’t until week 6-7 that Melissa started to emerge as a frontrunner. Why do you think that is?
And here’s to Part 4 and 5 I hope!!!!
Adding: I just want to see some good dancing and for the story lines to fall where they may naturally. We’re not stupid to know what’s altered purposely on this show and what’s not. Just go back to the roots of the show, just judge fairly and accordlying to how someone can dance, and remember why we are all here.
Please point to where I said it was fixed for Melissa to win, Jennifer.
Now, what name should I call you for missing the point completely…that was the rule , after all.
I do think that the show would benefit from new judges at this point, Sally. I’m not sure it would change much but I’m willing to give it a shot.
Thanks for posting, Heidi. Right on as usual. I can’t wait to read Part 4.
PH I sure agree w/all parts. Well Said! Gotta chime in that IMO new judges might give a ratings surge & keep the show around longer..but..someone needs to *b*slap the producers 1st. Ok, I’ll go with that the judges have SOME independence, but Len’s “I had Great Expectations but I got Bleak House” in response to Shawn & Derek’s Rumba coulda been maybe Cheesecake Award for Most Blatant Producer Putting Words in a Judge’s Mouth? Not that Len even liked Shawn & Derek’s Rumba (& my comment isn’t about that)…COME ON producers, if that was not a produced line, then I AM 20 years younger than I see myself in my dreams when I’m snorin’ the night away.
Let us hark back to the days of yore, Season 4. Was that the last pure season? Maybe. The show seemed to have a real, but friendly competitors atmosphere. But then Laila was sacrificed for an Apolo/Joey face-off. When I think about it now, maybe Laila tipped us off when she responded to Len about her FREESTYLE. Not quoting verbatim, but Len said something like you do elegant and grace so well, I would like to have seen that. Laila responds–hey it’s freestyle, I wanted to do something different. She looks straight at Len as says, Okay Len, whatever! So there we have it–Laila enters into the spirit of what a free-style is—free reign by the celeb/pro to please the audience–and she gets smacked down for bringing “her world” into play with a little bit of boxing bling & shuffle. Apolo did not get slammed for doing Hip-Hop–something from the days of his youth, and Joey did not get slammed for doing disco and lifts with Kym. The guys danced out of the box as did Laila but Len pooped on the party. As conspiracy theories go—maybe this was our first example of manipulation. IMO Laila should have been up there against either Joey or Apolo for the MBT!
Beyond that season, I only watch DWTS for the entertainment value and to snark with my friends over the judges comments and more especially CAIs ridiculous comments and her efforts to be ‘cool.” Thank goodness for DVR so I can watch the dances, FF through the judges, pause for Tom Bergeron’s play-by-play, then read the Wednesday news about who was eliminated.
The highly-publicized ALL STAR SEASON — ASS for short—is exactly what happened to TPTB at DWTS—this show made total ASSes out of them, their manipulation and the show as whole.
Just something which struck me as weird when I saw last season’s finale… When they got to “pick” their instant dance, if I rememeber correctly, both Shawn and Kelly wore a dress of the same colour, while Melissa, who was dead center on the stage, wore one of another colour. I think the coulour scheme was blue/red, but I can’t remember right now who wore what. It just seemed strange to me at the time, and in hindsight it seems as though TPTB were using a visual shorthand to make Melissa the one to watch (and the one to win). And I hate when I feel I’m manipulated like that…
Can you not say who the “little birdie” was? I can’t really think of a conclusion without knowing how credible the source is. TY
LOL Cbg, I guarantee you and can vouch that Heidi’s “little birdie” is a legit and a credible source!
Adding: Heidi is NOT the type to make up stuff. It’s not in her nature. Her time of writing and reporting on DWTS speaks for itself.
Anyways, it’s not like I don’t agree with you. I was just curious.I always ponder – if the voters sway judges comments and scores, or if judges comments and scores sway voters. That I can’t figure out.
As for what the little birdy told you. Melissa maybe changed the song but I don’t think she changed the dance style that late in the week.
You miss the point, again, Jennifer. I don’t think Melissa changed it. I think the producers changed it. It got her out of Rumba, for sure. We don’t know the reason. And it would likely have been very early in the week.
That’s up to you, Cbg – and frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether you believe the source is credible or not.
ChaChaCha, I don’t remember that far back but I’ll take your word for it. I hate to say this, but I’m going to anyway. I think part of Len’s problem is body type. He doesn’t seem to like any female doing ballroom that doesn’t look like Melissa or Nicole or any of the pros on the show. You can’t be short or non-skinny or too muscle-y or he’ll have a hard time coming around to you. I also occasionally wonder if there is a skin tone issue with him, if you know what I mean. Sadly.
You are right, miss Heidi! I think that may be the reason why Len thought Maria was a great dancer and he pictured her in the finale. She was good, but surely her technique was not better than Shawn’s (I admit this even though I am really fond of Menough). But as she fell into the category you described, he was more lenient towards her.
I agree with everything you’ve said and can’t wait for the next part. I started watching in season 4. I’m not, by any stretch of the imagination, a dancer, but I enjoy watching the show. I enjoyed seeing celebrities that didn’t have an ounce of dance experience improve week after week and wishing I had the chance to do something like that. The ones that come to the show embracing the opportunity, putting in the rehearsal time and, most of all, having fun, are the ones that make me watch every week. But then the manipulations started and even I could see how blatant they were. The worst was the William Levy fiasco. I don’t know how TPTB believed no one would catch on to that. Like Princess Heidi said, we are not morons! No, I don’t know all of the ins and outs of these dances, but when it’s slapping you in the face, it’s hard to miss. I read this blog to get my information. I take what Princess Heidi, Courtney and Vogue say seriously. They’re telling it like it is. I will watch this season, I can’t wait until it starts, but please, please, I’m hoping that every celebrity signing on gets an equal chance to succeed. The TPTB owe it to them and us. If they don’t, what will they do when viewers stop watching and celebrities have no interest in doing the show?
Thanks Cindy!
x
I was snooping around on the web, and I found this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOyk7NEWHDw
I think that the producers of DWTS here need to take some things from this video:
1. The judges were honest with this guy. His dance was crappy.
2. They were honest, but not rude or insulting, IMO. A couple of comments for laughs, but no references to little woodland creatures, or references to body parts, etc.
3. One of the judges even said “I’m looking for something positive to say”… she couldn’t find much, but there was an attempt at CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not just being a cheap knock-off copy of Joan Rivers.
4. THEY. USED. THE. 1. PADDLE! The score was what the guy deserved.
This is the kind of straightforward, honest judging that I think would go a LONG way toward fixing DWTS problems here.
PH, I have so enjoyed your honest critique. How you remember or keep track of all the seasons I’ll never know. I surely am incapable of doing that. So, I truly appreciate all the hard work you’ve poured into your first three parts with, hopefully, a part four to come. My only concern is whether TPTB will either listen or care about anything that you’re saying. When execs get that high up, they seem to think they’re king of the world and they can do whatever they want with no repercussions. The repercussions in this instance would be tanked ratings and a cancelled show at which point they all sit around looking at one another asking what just happened.
As for the scoring, I’m sure I’m remembering Season 14, but then again, my memory fails me on a regular basis. But didn’t Season 14 begin with a week two scoring of 9′s and 10′s? I do remember thinking that if they’re already perfect dancers (10 being a perfect score) then why continue to watch the rest of the season. Surely there can’t be any improvement from here if they’ve already reached the pinnacle of perfection. My point is, whatever were the judges thinking? Did that come from them or did TPTB instruct them to such scoring? Either way, WTF? They have 10 paddles, don’t they? Unless of course they’re only given paddles 4-10 as I have never seen paddles 1-3. Would it be so awful to start between 1 and 4 for weeks 1-4 and then accelerate the scoring from there having already eliminated, hopefully, the 2 worst dancers (considering week 1 has no elimination and one would be eliminated on week 2 and another on week 3).
Something that has never been covered, or at least I haven’t seen any mention of it but I’m a late comer to this board. Has anything been discussed about the pairings? For several seasons I’ve watched the pairings and thought to myself that some of those pairings are predisposed to be winners. The only way the pair would lose would be if they either totally screwed up or if their fans all decided to go to the moon on vacation. Take, for instance, Derek and Shawn. Would Shawn have faired as well as she had if she had been paired with Maks, or Val, or Louie? How about Derek? Would he have been able to win with Kirstie or Bristol? Why was Chelsie paired with a relatively unknown Disney (star??) for Season 14 (Roshon) and then paired with Helio, Season 15) and voted off the third week even though Helio had won a MB in his season. Compare that to Gilles or Joey who never won at all. Was Gilles really so much better than Helio or was he just more sexy to look at? What am I missing? Would Sabrina have made it to the finale if she had been paired with another pro? My point is, who decides the pairings and are they set up for predisposition. Sometimes it really does appear that way and, even before the first episode airs, I can already know who the top contenders will be simply by who is paired with whom. And it just appears that those pros who have won the MB more than once are paired with partners who have the best chance at winning. If I’m totally off base on this, please correct me, but it is how it appears to me and I will temper that by saying in most cases.
I guess my frustations with the show at this point begins with the pairing manipulation, (obviously they’re not picking names out of a hat) but I know they have to pair according to height but it just seems so unfairly manipulated to me. Then there’s the gross over/under scoring, out of line judges comments, CAI’s infatuation with the bare chested males and Bruno’s obviously gay remarks (I have no problems with gay people so it’s not that). Carrying bad dancers into weeks 5 and 6 or even later in the season and then blaming it on the fact that people are voting them in is not only dishonest but manipulative. And last of all (only because I can’t think of anything at this particular moment) the storyboarding. I don’t give a rats petootie if the teams are fighting or not, or if they’re walking around the Grove for publicity, or if someone is crying or someone is laughing. I only care about whether or not they’re working hard to get to the top. When TPTB think it’s entertainment to show one team fighting and crying and all the rest of the teams laughing and working hard only screws the fighting team. Leave that crap out. I know they need to show some background stuff (storyboarding), but choose something else. Yeah, it’s nice to see the teams practicing but I don’t want to see the fighting. They ALL fight at some point. They’re under pressure, working for hours and hours at a time, and of course the pro might be frustrated at some point with their partner and vice versa. Fatigue does that to people. But why not fill that time with some background about the celeb? Surely some of us don’t know a lot about some of these people. They are celebs, they have history. Tell us about that and make it interesting. Tell us something about these people that might endear them to us.
Sorry to say so much here, but I had so much to say.
Agree with @Diane on pairings….I bet Gilles would have made it farther if he was with Cheryl, and Emmit would probably have been eliminated earlier with another pro (Peta?). Sabrina probably would have gotten farther if she got Mark….ughhh I hate Bristol Palin
Well done and thank you Heidi. You have such a way with words.
I’m still so upset with the All Star Season or as someone so eloquently called it the ASS season lol.
I hope TPTB see your comments and take them to heart.
I’m tired of the manipulating and over/under scoring.
Last of all I’m tired of them thinking us viewers as morons – sure I want to see bad dancing – WTF?
Again thanks Heidi, Courtney and Vogue for all your comments and your caring and concern for this once top notch show.
I’m not sure Sabrina would have gotten farther with Mark then she did with Louie. She just did not have the fan base. And I don’t think it really mattered too much which pro she got.
Mo, you did exactly what I lament people doing in my post. Did you read it? Because it’s not all about fanbase and it’s not all about HER scores…but about the scores of the other couples. It’s simple math.
Diane – I started out really liking your idea about just using the 1 – 4 paddles for the first few weeks. Then I had an awful thought – generally lower scores would mean that a lower overall number of points would be handed out. That would mean that the percentage difference for a 1-point difference would actually increase – it would take more votes per million for the viewers/voters to cover a 1-point difference between 2 couples. Counter-intuitive, but IMO, that would somewhat actually increase the effect of judges scores on any given couple.
So, I’m thinking the key is (as PH said) consistent scoring, based on a syllabus. As long as the judges are following the same set of rules for all couples, it’s less likely (but not impossible) for any scoring shenanigans to be going on.
Are you listening, DWTS powers that be?
PH, I did read your post. I was responding to Diane K, and just forgot to mention it. I know it’s not about the fanbase, or just her scores. I was just saying for Sabrina it may not have helped her having a different partner.
Yeah, I think the important thing is to use the accurate paddles. If someone does a 7 dance, great. But if they are shit, then none of the cop out 6 paddles.
Couldn’t agree more!
Over the course of my life, I have had the opportunity to compete in several different types of competition…dance, piano, drum line, debate and public speaking. I now am a professor of Communication and Media at a University and adjudicate at other events where I was at one time a contestant. The one common thread through all these varied disciplines is that the competitor has to know what is expected and what are the consequences of not meeting expectations. As a judge – I know what the stated expectations are and how many points are deducted for various infractions or inability to do a particular skill. Even then, I am left with a few points that address the “subjectivity” of evaluating elements like, delivery, musicality, and showmanship.
It is called a RUBRIC – and standardizes the evaluation – so scores are not given based on “who you like” or “who had a wardrobe malfunction.” Bad dancers who don’t meet the criteria get bad scores. Good dancers who meet or exceed the basic requirements get good scores. A good dancer who’s shoe gets caught up in her dress – but still manages to pull herself back together may lose part of a point because she lost a step or two as a result of a trip…but could gain those points back in SHOWMANSHIP if she went on without a hitch.
I know you all know this…but what totally just makes my head spin is that if the judges were judging a professional competition and gave out scores willy nilly like they do now – they wouldn’t be asked to judge one more competition. I have no problem with a large portion of the Rubric for DWTS being “subjective” and allow for most improved etc. But the consistency that it would bring would actually make DWTS more engaging and fun to watch. It would also eliminate the “Levy Hip Hoopla!” On the dances where the man has to use his hips – he would have gotten FULL points under the Rubric…but then on dances where keep everything in elegant line was the focus of the rubric…his continued use of his hips to please the crowd would have counted against him.
Ok…so I guess I decided to make up for lost time since this is my first POST but have been a reader/lurker for a long time. Thanks PH, Courtney and Vogue for putting in the time here…your observations and posts have rekindled my love for DANCE…and the competitor in me wants there to be a level playing field…for all the contestants. If they can learn and dance…they move on…if it isn’t their thing…then Kuddos for the willingness to give it a go – but GO you must! And that’s all I’ve got to say about that!
Now I am off to grade speech outlines….with what, you ask? Ummmm….that would be a Rubric. Ok…sorry – couldn’t help the one last reference!
@Sally, I actually suck at math so all that figuring is just beyond me. I’m clueless to how all that works out with percentage differences and votes per million. My point is it’s just as simple as no one deserves a 9 or a 10 until further into the season. The reality is that if you’re assigning scores that high at the beginning, there’s no where to go for improvement and, as I’ve seen others comment, we enjoy watching the improvement of the celebs. And another thing I really don’t understand is whose scores weigh more heavily, the judges or the fans, or is there some kind of formula for that too?
I agree wholeheartedly that CONSISTENCY is the key. I’m not sure that under any circumstances the 3 musketeers are capable of consistency. I haven’t seen consistent judging since…..hmmm….I’m sure I can’t remember when. Do you think those three can follow a syllabus? And, will this syllabus become public or would it be private so that it could be manipulated at will?
PH, it is important to use the accurate paddles, I agree. That’s why I’m really getting confused now about not starting with the 1-3 paddles. Why does anyone deserve a 7 on week 1 when the lowest scorer is a 6? That’s like saying 6 is 1, 7 is 2…etc. But for the sake of votes per million or percentage differences we can’t actually use the 1-3 paddles? Ugh! That’s why I get a headache where numbers are involved.
Laila’s freestyle w/judges comments. CAI started the ‘elegance’ chatter and Len & Bruno followed suit.
Hear Hear Miss Heidi – sure do hope TPTB are reading this series.
Echoing some of the previous posters – you must have a photographic memory to recall all these details from previous seasons. yea, I’m sure you have electronic digital assistance, but still ….. hats off!
with everything TPTB have thrown at us over the years – why not give Heidi’s ideas a try. What harm could it do?
Great job for a first post, Jann.
And I love the word “rubric”.
Diane, I think you’re getting hung up on the high score in the early weeks when it’s the low scores that are at issue. I can think of LOTS of dancers – Nicole, Mya, Jennifer, Brandy, Sabrina, the list goes on – that deserve 7′s or 8′s in week one. The problem is when dancers who are not even close to the same league get 6′s, as you suggest. I can also think of LOTS of dancers that should have gotten 2′s or 3′s in week one. What Sally (I think) was talking about in terms of the percentages is if EVERYONE gets the low scores. If you give a Nicole a 7 and a Bristol a 3 (just as an example) you actually increase the votes that Bristol needs to stick around. That’s one of the big problems – when you score them against themselves, you end up with Nicole getting an 8 and Bristol getting a 7 – and in NO universe is that realistic.
Did I make it better, or worse?
PH, you made it better. Thank you for your patience. Now I understand better about the low votes needed against a 3 vs the higher 6 for the opponent. But the point is, they don’t give 3′s where 3′s are deserved. Instead they give the 6. The lowest score I’ve ever seen given is a 4 and that was after weeks of giving that same bad dancer 6,7,8 in previous weeks. When they give the 4, we all know it’s their manipulated effort to get rid of that dancer finally. And that is the problem. Had they scored the bad dancer the 4 in the first weeks (given they deserved it), they wouldn’t still be around and a good dancer wouldn’t have been sacrificed for the sake of what they call entertainment. That is the manipulation that I detest. So, I think what you’re saying is that if the bad dancer gets the low scores and has to compete with all the other higher scores, the bad dancer’s fans have to work a whole lot harder to keep them around and probably won’t be able to get the percentage of higher votes to get the job done. Well then, they go home….DUH. But that isn’t what TPTB want b/c that bad dancer just happens to be funny or entertaining or have some kind of sex appeal and they want to drive their storyboard to attract more viewers when, in fact, they’re only frustrating a viewer like me b/c I see how contrived the whole thing is. (sorry, that was a HUGE run-on sentence.) So, they hugely overscore them so that the fan vote will be able to keep the bad dancer in and then drive a good dancer out. So, how is that in any world the least bit fair? BIG BIG PROBLEM.
Jann, I absolutely love love love the rubric. No room for manipulation and fairness all around for all competitors. That is precisely what should be happening and that’s how the judging should be done. So, what do the viewers need to do, short of SCREAMING TO TPTB that this is what we want???
Thanks Miss Heidi!
Diane: Thanks! After re-reading some of the discussion about lower numbered paddles, I thought I would share one more aspect of the Scoring Rubric we use in dance competitions that I am involved with now.
When I am judging a “Juniors” division…the rubric states that they must be able to perform certain dance skills…to a certain level. Points added or deducted according to their execution. The rubric also still allows for musicality, interpretation, showmanship (all rather subjective – but still a place for points to be added) and finally – there are a few remaining points to be added for EXCEEDING expectations…
It is a very different Rubric when judging a Senior Division. Expectation of skill is higher, the ability to create flow from one step sequence to another is now a BASIC skill – no extra points for being able to do it, interaction with their partner – required, frame — EVERY element requires a higher skill…it takes a lot MORE to get a 7 in the Seniors division than it did in the Juniors. They have to GROW and become more proficient. Certainly, no one would/should be judging them as if they were professionals.
If there were to be such a Rubric for DWTS – it would make sense to me that the first few weeks (when all the celebrities are starting from scratch) that the scoring and requirements would be more of the Junior Variety…get the basics down – and let the Pro’s TEACH. If they have a gifted student/partner – then after getting the required basic skills choreographed into the dance, their challenge is to SHOWCASE their partners “exceptional” skills.
Later in the season (with full knowledge of higher expectations revealed to Celebrities, Pros and Judges – oh and maybe us viewers in advance) the “senior” level rubric comes into play….again weeding out the adequate and propelling the exceptional.
I have often thought that this show is a CRAZY-maker for the Pro’s. The ones that are creative get slammed and the ones that hide the inabilities of their partner by dancing circles around them are rewarded. Ey-yi-yi! Where is their motivation to stretch and be innovative?!?!?!
Thanks for letting me vent a bit…I will retreat back into “lurker” mode – but know how much I enjoy visiting and here and finding great discussions and lovely discussion hosts!
Well, that was one of the points of my series, Diane. That’s what they need to be doing, pulling out the lower paddles.
At the very least, the judges need to STFU about good dancers going home, if they don’t have the balls (or permission) to use the lower scoring paddles.
Well, that is a huge problem, Jann. They’ve convinced some of the pros to dumb down their choreography. I don’t think they will realize what they had in Derek until he’s gone. Do any of those remaining have the balls to choreograph dances like he did this last season? Mark. Henry. Maybe Kym and Karina? It could be a let down.
I do think the male pros, in general, are MUCH better at teaching their partners to dance – Derek being the best example of teaching his partners to dance when they aren’t that good. Joanna is the best example – she *danced* but once you go back and look at their dances compared to, say, Shawn or Nicole or Jennifer, you realize that Derek took a few moves that she was good at and found different ways to choreograph that into their dances so they were dancing. I think that a few of the female pros are much more inclined :::cough::: Cheryl :::cough::: to dance around their partner. But MAYBE, if they brought the number of dances per week down to a reasonable level AND do them in an order that makes sense from a learning standpoint, you would actually see better (and more) dancing. Doing Jive and Quickstep in the second week is asinine. Courtney is much better at laying out the order the dances should be learned in – but I seem to recall that those two dances should be saved for later.
I think the producers and the judges are making a serious mistake by applying strict ballroom rules to dances which are not strictly ballroom. We have had plenty of that in the All Star season. How do ballroom rules apply to trio dances, to fusion dances or to contemporary dances, may I ask? And I don’t think we could ever see a bare-chested male dancer in a real ballroom competition, so the scores should have nothing to do with that. A dancer doesn’t need to take off his clothes to dance better, does he? But the producers allow it for entertainment reasons, so they should permit, for instance, a lift or two in dances where they could be applicable.
Spot ON Miss Heidi!
PH, thank you for your patience and kindness. I do believe we are now on the same page and I finally have a much better understanding of what should be going on with the scoring. The fact that what should be and what is are worlds apart is extremely bothersome. I’m still wondering what it would take to convince TPTB of what, we as viewers and fans, really want.
Jann, thank you for your input from a judges perspective. I only wish that your ideas could actually be put into practice for DWTS. I think it would make the show a whole lot more enjoyable and a lot less a farce at times. Please don’t go back to lurking. Your input is appreciated.
Jann, I am really liking this Rubric, sounds very fair to all while still allowing those capable dancers to show off and garner those extra points – and provide the showmanship and exciting dancing that is needed. While everyone loves the journey – me most definitely included – we also tune in for some good fun dancing, so I’m always well pleased when there are celebs on the show that can dance.
I remember many many seasons ago, they would have a Pro pair show us how the two dance styles of the night were supposed to be danced – what to look for, with camera zeroing on the footwork, or the shoulders, or the whatever they were trying to explain. As a total non-dancer, I always enjoyed those segments the best. (this was back in the day before the night of 1000 dance styles). Applying some much-needed guidelines to the scoring aspect of the show can only be beneficial tot he show – and ultimately I think we’ll get better dancing (and maybe less injuries?) all around if the expectations are known to all up front.
DWTS makes changes every season, let’s all hope they’re thinking along the same lines we are!
Miss Heidi – you’re right. The male pros definitely appear to be better teachers – but in defense of the girl PROS, I think it is harder to teach a GUY to LEAD than to teach a girl to follow with confidence.
I do think the show is going to be in a world of hurt when Derek leaves (and I’m with you, I hope he does move on sooner rather than later because he has so much to offer where it will be more appreciated and rewarded!). And that is my last “unselfish” word on the topic! *smile*
You’ve nailed the list of Pros that have the best chance of providing innovative choreo…and perhaps some of the others could have when they first came to the show – but appear to have been slapped down to the point that they no longer risk ANYTHING…again – the vitality of the show is the biggest loser. *sigh*
I think you are right (and Courtney could clarify even more) it makes no sense to make beginners learn the hardest dances (technically and element requirements wise) when they haven’t had time to master the basics. How much more dazzling would it be to save those dances for those who make it past the first few weeks when their skills have improved and will actually execute them better…the viewing audience would love it…since as you have accurately pointed out…”we aren’t morons!”
Diane, you are very kind. The reason I usually “lurk” is because the hostesses do such a great job of keeping the conversation constructive and lively! My intention was just to applaud PH’s observations and suggestions for how to fix DWTS. It is one of my favorite shows…and I would hate to see it go further down the path that it has appeared to be headed down for the past several seasons (probably longer than that, truth be told).
Hopefully, they will read her posts and have a bit of a “head snap” moment…but I am not going to hold my breath. I will however, be back to see what the insightful Blog Hosts and other posters have to say – and if I can add to the conversation, I will be glad to do so!
Amen to that!!
Jann, I think the female pros cop out a lot of the time. It may be harder to teach a man to lead, but in Ballroom dancing the man is only the frame, the female is the picture. More of the intricate moves, etc are done by the female. Not to mention that if you ask Courtney’s boyfriend about lifts I think he would tell you that the female has to do the work too.
This is very well written. I have only seen this season, so I’m not the best judge, but even to me the inconsistencies in the judging seems to be the biggest problem. What makes it even worse is that sometimes the overscoring is totally obvious, but the reason behind it is not (or at least it isn’t for an inexperienced viewer like myself). For example, Melissa was obviously overscored in the second half of the season, but why? I admit at first I tought they fixed the show to let her win, but thinking again I’m not so sure anymore. I mean, in the end this is not AI, were the winner gets a huge contract and the opportunity to launch a career. I think the producers of dwts care about the ratings and the buzz, not really about the winner. So maybe the mad propping of Melissa was just to make it look like Shawn had some competition? Maybe too many people were just assuming that Derek and Shawn were running away with the votes and they wanted to do the final more interesting? Again, not sure.
The only thing I’m sure about is that they made a huge number of mistakes with this all-star season: they brought back Bristol hoping that she would stir controversy and maybe bring media attention on the show and she just didn’t; they set up Sabrina’s elimination to be this big upset and noone was really buying it; they put Gilles with Peta hoping for this huge chemestry that didn’t really happen (even if the judges were careful not to comment on it). At some point they maybe realized that Apolo and Karina were just screwed by the lack of chemestry comments and that all the overscoring in the world would not convince viewers that Emmitt was the great dancer they were making him up to be and so they chose Melissa to be the runner up? Cause that’s the only thing that would explain why the judges looked so shocked when the winner was announced…
Again, this season still leaves me very confused.
Yes, yes, yes! I had forgotten about the order of dances. That is another thing that irks me to no end. Who in bloody hell thought up the notion of Jive and Quickstep on week 2? Whoever it was, they should be tarred & feathered (maybe spray-tanned and glittered?).
I loved the show when it started out with Foxtrot and Cha Cha… and the Jives & Quicksteps weren’t until week… 6? 7? But at least people got to learn some basics, and get into better shape before attempting those.
One other thing about the judges in addition to the scoring – if I want to see 3 supposed adults talking over each other, caterwauling, and generally acting like asses, I’ll tune into Keeping up with the Kardashians… so TPTB, if you’re listening, there’s another topic for which the answer is “Tell the judges to knock it the Hell off!” Oh, and by the way – if they’re crazy enough to keep Bruno on, he needs to be strapped onto one of those “Hannibal Lecter” carts.
Miss Heidi – No argument from me on the picture vs frame analogy…and without a doubt the female has the harder part…the male uses strength to begin the lift…but the female has to make her part look effortless and her steps are usually more intricate and on display and therefore harder to camouflage if she isn’t getting it. So the conclusion must be that the male pros are (in general) doing a better job getting their partners up to speed.
On that topic, I got tickled with a bit of commentary that Shirley Ballas made after week 4 or 5. One of the females got tripped up by her skirt and Shirley said that if her partner wasn’t trying to hide the fact that she didn’t put her feet in the right place by covering it with her costume, the skirt would have been the right length and she wouldn’t have tripped. Now that is good commentary! *smile*
I wanted to bring up the fact that Len in particular, but Carrie Ann as well, are very inconsistent when scoring the same person on a week to week basis. An example was Maria and Derek last season. Len totally ripped them apart in week 8 for their samba, saying there was not enough content. However, their jive the next week did not have a ton of content either and he said absolutely nothing about it and gave it a higher score than their samba. He’s done the same with William, Kyle, and others that I can’t remember right now. It is very irritating because if you can’t even score the same person consistently then really your scores are nothing but a complete farce.
Ditto to every comment! And I would like to point out how weird it is when the judges praise dances as “The best ever” or when they tell someone they are “the best contestant ever”. It is kind of misleading, because one week they praise them as the new Ginger or Fred and the following week they slam them as if they could barely dance…And the contestant would benefit from a realistic critique. Whenever the judges overlook blatant mistakes the contestants may feel they are better than they actually are, and so the next time they receive harsh comments they seem disappointed. I remember Len saying that Gilles’footwork was atrocious during the group dance in season 8 (and he considers him the best male dancer).
As a Kyle Massey fan, I found it very odd (and I am probably biased, but I digress), that he chose his Tango for his favorite dance in season 11. The obvious choice would have been the “Good Golly, Miss Molly” Jive, which scored 29, and was one of the favorite dances of the season. The scoring for that round was that each judge assigned an “8″, “9″, or “10″ paddle to each couple, as a ranking of sorts. All three of them chose dances that were lower scores the first time than the scores that they received in the finale. Here’s the question: was it rigged for Jennifer? If Kyle had chosen that Jive, it would have been incredibly confusing if he would have received a lower score for such a dance the second time around, because only one ten per judge could be given out (to Jennifer, of course).
They didn’t need to fix it for Jennifer, any more than they needed to fix it for JR. She’s an icon, he’s a war hero, both had great pros – no fixing needed.
That said, it is somewhat odd that he chose tango for his favorite dance – but you often see the couples pick lower scoring dances, with the goal being that they score higher so they can show “growth” to the audience and to the judges. Perfectly understandable, when it’s regular scoring. But for Kyle it’s a weird choice considering his personality and the fact that it was a “rank” scoring. He probably should have chosen the Jive and risked still getting the lower rank – it wouldn’t have mattered that it was “lower” because they were ranking the dancers and Jennifer was clearly a better dancer than Kyle and deserved the better rank. He wouldn’t have lost face doing that, but he might have increased his votes.
I actually have NO problem with the ranking system as an idea, provided that they don’t fuck that up like they do so many things. Ranking is perfectly legitimate way to go in the finals and often probably BETTER than the regular way. I do think that they go either with regular scoring or ranking depending heavily on who the dancers are and what they are trying to accomplish. In that season, having ranking was fine – Jennifer was the best dancer and was most likely to win. Kyle was not even close, but had a great personality. Then there was Bristol. By only handing out a rank they keep some of the spread intact by not adding a ton more points. I actually wish they would do the ranking every season. That way the judges HAVE to say who’s dance was best. No copping out.
Hi Everyone. I just found this site half-way through last season and I love it. It is so on the money with the critiques of all the harkey-malarkey that went down.
I would like to address something that hasn’t come up with too much yet and hope Heidi can comment on it to.
THE MUSIC. Who are these people that pick the music? I believe that TPTB are interfering here too. I have noticed over the seasons that some people get great music and others get dishwater songs. Remember when Rob K did a samba and came out in this cart with flowers and the music was like festival time in Rio, and others got crap songs? Music has the ability to evoke such strong emotions that sometime I think the celebrity gets a higher score from the judges not from the dancing but because the music has blinded them or excited them (CAI). Certain people (ie Derek in all seasons) seem to get screwed over with music choices. Not all the time, but enough. Remember the jive with Nicole. Guess he showed them, because that is my favorite jive ever. But I think that the music choices should be fair, with everyone getting a song that is good to dance to for their particular dance that week. I have no problem with choosing a modern song for a tango, but it should be danceable. I think it would be a good idea to have a professional dancer in the music selecting group that would be able to nix songs that would be a handicap just because they weren’t appropriately danceable. I personally think that this past season some celebrities were handed music that gave them a better chance than their competitors.
Also, may I suggest an instant replay before final scoring. Many times the judges make mistakes, but the scores are already sent and it is too late. If someone did not do a lift, if the foot didn’t come off the floor, if it was a catch and not a lift, if there is any question, then an instant replay should be shown and the judge given a chance to change their score. It might take a little time, but it is much fairer than getting a low score and an apology the next night when it is too late. I know I am just dreaming with that one.
Lastly, I don’t want to dredge up the past BUT…I found a way to just tape small snippets on my DVR, so I have tons of my favorite performances which I have watched numerous times. Additional viewing gives you a different perspective on the dances. I have to say, and maybe I am prejudiced, but how did Melissa win? I believe Heidi when she says she doesn’t think the voting is fixed, but something has to be there. All I can figure is that the scoring from the judges has a much higher or stronger weight against the viewer voting. I can’t understand how an Olympian (either one of them) couldn’t have a stronger fan base than Melissa. We know S&D were refused their fusion dance and had to do the Quickstep. It brought down their scores to 3rd. Could those few judges points really make that much of a difference? If the voting isn’t fixed could that be it. Could it be something like: Judges 70% and Viewing voting 30%? They have never really said how much of a percentage the judges scores were worth. I don’t know, and I know I should let it go but everytime I watch those dances and see how great they were, I just shake my head and start talking to myself. It has really turned me off to voting anymore. I will really have to think about it. I was so disillusioned. Even knowing how things work on the show, this was just so….I have no words.
Sorry that I wrote a book for my first posting…I’m Italian and we sometimes suffer from “over enthusiasm” !!! Hope I have made some sense!
This thread gets more and more interesting.
Jann, your posts are full of great content, TY.
In reading your well-illustrated comparison of different judging rubrics used for junior and senior divisions, I am again struck by how much thoughtfulness, experience, knowledge and skill would be required of DWTS judges who actually used and applied a real rubric. Are the judges we have now even equipped to handle that? CAI and perhaps Bruno would need extensive training, IMO. And of course the producers would need to buy into the rubric so Len would.
But I do agree with you and so many others here that consistency in the judging and yes, a well-understood rubric would keep the viewers much more engaged and many viewers less apoplectic. And be kinder to our hard-working pros. I actually don’t think the show has much of a future as a dancing competition unless the producers get invested in creating the conditions that make consistency in the judging both possible and necessary.
Dona Z, Melissa won because all the little manipulations have an effect – that’s why they do it. That said, I don’t think they particularly cared who won and probably until the last week figured that Shawn probably would. They want it to be a horse race, a competition. I just think they have started going too far. I also think that you have to consider the fans of all the other pros and how hard they might vote to prevent Derek from getting another Trophy. As long as he only has 3, someone can tie him – Mark, Cheryl, Kym, Karina – and Val and Maks have a shot at catching up. But if he gets trophy number 4? No one will ever catch him. I don’t think the show will be on the air that long. IF the numbers of actual voters aren’t high, whether because people stopped caring or they assumed Shawn was going to win so they didn’t bother, it is MUCH easier for power voters or just regular voters who are fans of other pros to have a significant impact on the outcome. Combine that with the other factors of people who actually liked Melissa better and feel bad cuz Tony’s never won and the fact that the judges were monkeying around with the scoring (that instant dance scoring still pisses me off) all season, etc etc etc and voila! Melissa wins. The Perfect Storm, so to speak.
As for the music and Derek getting saddled with some amazingly bad choices?? Well, It has seemed that way to me, but I think every pro has gotten real stinkers in terms of music. Part of me thinks that part of the reason they do it to Derek is to see what he’ll do with it. Some of the worst song choices resulted in some of his most creative dances.
Kym already has 3 ( one from Australia). Mark and Cheryl have a better chance to tie with Derek. Cheryl doesn’t seem to care anymore, so Mark is the best bet. I don’t think Karina or Peta will have a chance to get another trophy. It was their partners that gave them the trophy, they basically went along for the ride. I don’t think they have it in them to create champions. Val and Maks still have to get their first. I think Val has a better chance to get one before Maks. Tony just got lucky IMO, like PH said.
I think “insta-dance” scores were pointless. I don’t think they influenced the outcome that much. If anything, they may have given Shawn the second place.
On another note, we may have overestimated Shawn’s fanbase. If you think about it, she won by less than 1% via viewers vote her season. Gilles and Shawn had same scores in the finale. That’s not a big win.
Kym’s Australian one doesn’t even count when SHE talks about it. Or any of the media, producers, etc. The perception out there is that Derek is the only pro with 3 MBT’s. Perception is reality.
I don’t think Shawn’s fanbase was over estimated. I think the “poor Tony” contingent and those that didn’t want another Derek win were UNDER estimated.
If you think ANY score is pointless, you haven’t been paying attention. At ALL. The judges MADE it irrelevant by giving Melissa such a high score for a shit dance – if they had given her what she deserved, like 7′s or 8′s, we may have had a different outcome. In that way, those scores absolutely had an effect. I don’t actually believe that Melissa has a big fanbase. At all. In fact, I wonder how many remember she actually won a year from now. The Shawn fans will, that’s for sure.
Excellent Post! You’re right on the money in every point, BUT we the viewers THINK we’re watching a dance contest but we’re actually watching a bid for your dollars paid to the show by advertisers. The show exists to make money for the network right?
OK so if dancer x has a 20 million person fan base and dancer y has a 1 million viewer fan base. Say Dancer Y is by far the better dancer. It still makes since for the producers to make sure that dancer x hangs around longer to keep those 20 million viewers in their chairs glued to the screen. No doubt they drop those hints to the judges and we get what we have now.
The “Fix”? Bring in three (Or at Least 2) super qualified PROFESSIONAL Ballroom Judges and take the public voting rights away.
The Catch: PBS had a show called “America’s Ballroom Challenge”. Beautiful professional dancers, but only the Freestyle Routines kept you from turning off the TV in boredom. They last ran it in 2009, and dropped it for lack of viewers.
Great technically correct dances make for easy accurate judging, but poor entertainment. Ad that to the fact that it takes many years and not six to 8 weeks to be truly a technically correct dancer. No celebrity has that kind of time or dedication and only one person in a 100,000 does.
It is that thrill of the unknown, personal connection, and drama that keeps us viewing until we start to see that the “Fix” is in. I’m under no illusion that every season has one or two favored dancers that are destined to win regardless of their competition.
I watch the show for the people and the dance. Some of the celebrities that I have never heard of before that are great dancers and have great personalities, have gotten my votes in the past.
Yes, I thought Tony and Melissa “Deserved” the win. So did everybody else I talked to. Yes, we all said: “They DESERVED it.”
Something else that helped Melissa, imho, is that after Kirstie and Gilles were double-eliminated in week 8, she was the only remaining star who hadn’t previously won an MBT. For fans who felt strongly that All-Stars should have been about non-winners getting a second chance, Melissa was their only remaining option.
Thanks for all your input guys. You all make good points. Although it would have been great to see Derek get #4, I can see how a lot of people would like to stop that from happening. So much manipulation goes on for what is supposed to be a fun, entertaining show. It’s like trying to fight City Hall !
When I mentioned the music, I used Derek as an example, but I mean it
in general. Some of the songs that are picked for all the celebrities
are just awful and some people really luck out. It’s like tripping the couple before they even get on the dance floor trying to fit a dance into a shoddy music choice.
One of my other brilliant ideas would be to use the show for charitable purposes. Have big celebrities come on to dance. THe viewers would vote for their choices, with each call costing a minimal amount (somethine affordable). THey could each have their own charity, or dance for a different one each week. The celebrities could dance only once or more, at their own choice. They could switch pros, or dance with each other. It could go for maybe six weeks. Then, since it was for charity, some really big stars would come on from movies, tv, broadway, music etc. It would be a fun way to raise money for charity and maybe the show could begin to attract a better class of celebrities, which is the one thing that is always said about lower level celebrities coming on. I haven’t come up with a good idea for the judges, maybe you guys have some good ideas about that. Brad and Angie could do the tango. Rosie and Ellen could do a jive with Karina and Kym (nothing to get middle America all twirled up about like with Chas). Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon could have a dance-off. Usher could do a paso with Lady Gaga. Regis and Derek could do a Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire routine. Okay, I will stop now!
Do you think something like that could ever work?
Oh my god!
I just read my post and I hope I don’t sound like a nut!
I am such a big fan of the show and dancing in general
and so glad to find you guys, and think I just went
off the rails. I will try and contain myself from
now on!!!
Donna Z, I enjoyed your ideas. Creativity is a good thing. (I would love to see Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon in a dance off)
IMO the producers have gone off the rails, not you. The mods will probably let you know if they think you should contain yourself.
I dunno, we mods have a real problem telling people to STFU.
Me in particular. You’re fine, Donna.
CHSREB, the “all my friends said so” argument doesn’t fly here. For everyone who’s friends all said Melissa deserved to win, there is someone else who said Shawn or Kelly deserved it.
Great post Princess Heidi! I’ve really enjoyed reading this series so far because I can’t help but agree with a lot of the things that you have said. I’m still really disappointed with how the All-Stars season ended because being a Shawn and Derek fan, I thought that they absolutely deserved to win, but didn’t in large part to the producers’ manipulation and the judges’ inconsistent scoring throughout the season. If DWTS continues down this path, I don’t think the show will be on the air for much longer because the viewers are not stupid and can obviously tell when the show is being manipulated to favor some contestants over others.
@Stephanie, the manipulation of some contestants being favored over others has been blatantly obvious for many seasons. This didn’t just happen. The problem is the viewers are tired of it and we need TPTB to stand up and say they are doing things differently. So far, there’s no indication that they’re paying any attention to anything being said. Quite frankly, we’ll see if they’re listening when the new season begins. As far as I’m concerned, if they don’t want to listen, I don’t want to watch. So, we’ll see.
You are absolutely correct. Like Kelly said “this show is nothing to do with dancing” Len and Carrie ann need to go!!!!!!! They are totally bias. The producers have their head up their you know what. Like Len saying a cow and tractor is not country for Derek and Shawns country dance. Maybe they should have had space shuttles for country? It goes beyond rediculous. the show is tanking badly and will continue. Bad dancers have to go and so does Len and Carrie ann, she has gotten idiotically bad in the last 4 seasons.
@ Diane K, it has been very apparent to me the obvious manipulation of some contestants being favored over others for many seasons. I was just using the All-Stars season as an example because it’s the most recent season and has been mentioned many times in this series by Princess Heidi to convey her point of view.
@Stephanie, agreed. And perhaps All-Stars was the most blatant because so many of us have noticed and are much more vigilant and intolerant than before.