PureDWTS Discussion Post: Spencer Liff on the Choreography “Controversy”
I saw this the other day and kind of ignored it. Mainly because I don’t really consider it a “controversy” OR new information. But I’m bored – the dog days of summer and waiting for DWTS Fall Season news to break is getting old. Plus Vogue is on vaycay and me and Court have to try to fill the void. 🙂
We’ve known that outside choreographers help for YEARS. Derek just mentioned it in a meet and greet the other day when asked about choreography. I don’t recall the context, but he said that he only used an outside choreographer for his and Shawn’s bhangra, but he knows that others do it more frequently….and he can always tell when outside help was used. He’s very observant, so that’s no surprise, plus he knows all of them very well. He apparently didn’t think it was a huge deal – and neither does Spencer Liff. Spencer makes some interesting points and seems to defend Witney (if she needs defending) pretty clearly. He says that outside “help” doesn’t have a right to the statue. What are you going to do? Count the steps that you contributed? What he seems to be saying – at the risk of putting words in his mouth – is that the contracted individual is responsible, is in charge and deserves the credit for that. What do you think?
Also, what I found interesting was that Spencer said he has “ghosted” on DWTS “many times” – this is intriguing, just cuz I’m nosey. 🙂 But the money comes out of the DWTS pros pocket when they get help, and it’s done away from the regular rehearsal spaces – and he says take your paycheck and keep your mouth shut. Very interesting conversation in the first five minutes of the video I’ve posted, below.
At the end of the day, Witney tried and gave full credit to her assistant and DWTS apparently tried as well. But the Academy has rules. Someone else mentioned in the video that the producers are limited to THREE nominees also, even if more producers were involved. Too bad. Those of you “helping” either need to stop helping without being contracted to the show, or suck it up and take the pay the DWTS pros give you.
Courtney: First off, a tip of the hat to Spencer – I’ve always found him to be one of the less “diva-ish” choreographers on SYTYCD, and while I may not have always been wowed by his choreography, I think he’s always done a good job of giving routines that are appropriate to the style he’s been assigned (unlike others, who seem to take “jazz” as an opportunity to do a contemporary routine). I think he also did great job of explaining what’s what as it pertains to the nominations – it was very “Look here, guys – as someone who’s been nominated before, let me tell you that if you are ghosting on a routine, you are just that – a ghost. Do not expect credit unless it was truly a collaborative effort – you don’t get to say ‘But I choreographed 20% of that!’ after the fact. Your money is your compensation – take it and shut up.” Anyone else get the feeling he was a tad irked that some people were even trying to pull that stuff? 😉 Now, with that being said – I feel like him comparing his “assistants” on SYTYCD is maybe not a perfect analogy to what we think the situation has been at DWTS. I’ve always gotten the impression that those “assisting” on SYTYCD were just helping the choreographer to show the routine to the couple they’re choreographing – they don’t actually contribute much, creativity-wise. They’re just a body. The impression I get from DWTS is that it’s one pro actively contributing to another pro’s work – giving advice on choreography. But, I do agree with Spencer – it gets to be really tricky determining how much credit you give for a partial contribution by another pro. I look at a true collaboration as something akin to Derek & Chelsie’s acoustic paso back in season 10 – they agreed to work together and both were involved every step of the way, therefore a co-nomination was appropriate; but I get the feeling that the dances in question (presumably Witney’s, though I see the female pros are still dancing around naming names) were more like Witney getting somewhat into choreographing something and saying “Crap, I’ve hit a wall with this part. Hey Sharna (or whoever), can you help me work through this part right here?” And then Sharna (or whoever) contributing something to a portion of the dance, and then walking away. It wasn’t as if Pro A and Pro B started off choreographing from the beginning together; the concept of the dance was probably Witney’s idea, and the bulk of the spacing/set design/costume design/choreography was also hers. But anywho – the degree of entitlement being what it is amongst the pros at DWTS these days (as well as the degree of butthurt-ness), can’t say I’m surprised that some of the pros are basically scoffing at what has been standard operating procedure at the Academy for many years and feeling as though they are due some sort of credit. Cause everybody is a winner and a special little snowflake that deserves an MBT, and Emmy nomination, and whatever his/her little heart desires – because FAIRNESS, guys. But yes, please do continue to throw shade at other pros for something that was likely out of their control, anyway – and then get indignant when fans try to guess just who you’re passive-aggressively tweeting about. Such a good look 🙂 Funny how people think WE start “fan wars”…the pros are doing a fine job of it themselves…
Heidi: Yeah, they do it all by themselves – instigation through passive aggressiveness. And yes, I think Spencer was miffed at the topic and that some expect more credit. As for his analogy – it could actually be more on target than we realize. Who’s to say that a large chunk of the “help” is akin to what Derek does all the time – that is show male celebs how to correctly move their body for certain parts of dances. Lot’s of people have mentioned that he’s done this in the past. The question is: where do you draw the line? If, for example, Derek is choreographing a routine and he gets stuck on a spot and Mark walks in and says, “Why don’t you put a flip right there?” is he co-choreographing the routine?? Hell no. One trick don’t make a dance. And a choreographed piece is just that – an entire piece. Even if you add a little section – is that a “significant contribution” as required by the academy? I don’t think so. So, of course Spencer would be miffed – look at it from his perspective. You put blood, sweat and tears into a storyline, concept, music and the choreo and someone tweaks one little move to make the routine better or more cohesive or more flowy and they should be co-choreographer? Um, hell no. That some would feel entitled to a co-nomination in any of those situations is annoying. And you’re right, Court – it all goes back to the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality that seems to have permeated DWTS the last few season. Um, by the way, kids, Derek hasn’t won in four seasons now, which means that others have won. So please retire the pee wee baseball mentality.
Courtney: Several years ago, I remember reading a piece that a lawyer in the entertainment industry wrote about plagiarism/copyright infringement/whatever the hell you would call one choreographer copying another choreographer’s choreography. It pertained to a certain dance on SYTYCD that a choreographer was complaining was a “blatant copy” of a dance he had choreographed a few years before (don’t ask me what dance it was, because it’s been so long that I don’t remember – but I vaguely remember Benji Schwimmer somehow being involved), and the main crux of the argument was “Can you claim copyright infringement/plagiarism/whatever in a choreographed work of dance?” And I remember the lawyer explaining that dance is just such a different beast from works of writing/art/music/etc. that it becomes very, very difficult to prove whether a choreographed dance has been unfairly “copied” from another – not only is it hard to quantify movements in the same way one might count words or musical phrases that match up, but so many dance steps are considered part of a standard dance “vocabulary” that it becomes hard to prove that a certain step really belongs to a certain choreographer or one of their works. I apply a lot of those same principles when thinking about credit for choreography: can you really say that a piece of choreography is yours if it’s just a sequence of familiar steps done in a certain order? If you only contribute a small section of 3-5 steps (which likely aren’t anything super new and different) to a routine (and you get paid for it), can you honestly claim creative credit for it as well, even though you didn’t choreograph the bulk of it? It really just adds a whole new layer of “Really, people?!” to the argument, I think – the fact that most claims of creative credit on a dance wouldn’t even hold up in the court of law makes me think that it likely doesn’t mean a damn thing to the Academy, either. “Oh, you helped with 10 seconds of a 1:30 routine? That’s nice. You want a cookie or something?” And if a pro ghosts for another pro, gratis – then I don’t think the situation changes. And perhaps that pro should have learned better by now. 🙂
I like the logic of how when a director makes a movie he gets various kinds of help to get the movie done and when the movie is nominated its actually the director who gest the award. End of the day its his movie. This thing just got blown out for no reason.
I think if somebody is coming in from outside and getting payed they are probably contributing more than 3-5 steps, but totally agree with what you said about pros helping other pros. It’s really sad this had to happen to Witney and put a damper on and overshadow what should have been such an exciting thing for her. And it is the pee wee baseball mentality, can you imagine how much worse these emmy fights are going to get when sytycd gets cancelled and there’s more room for dwts nominations it’s going to be a nightmare.
Hope everyone is having a good summer!
I do feel a little sorry for the bloke that worked with Witney. It’s obvious he did a lot more than just suggest a few steps when she was struggling, he must have contributed greatly to the routines or he wouldn’t have kicked up such a fuss. Now Witney’s going to get all the credit when a large portion of the work was probably his. However I fully agree with Spencer. It’s his own fault he didn’t get a contract before taking Witney’s money and doing what he needed to do and he can’t come back and complain now. The director and movie logic is spot on and the same rules apply here. At the end of the day, whatever goes out on television and gets judged in the ballroom is down to the professional dancer. He or she is the director, choreographer, teacher or whatever. That’s why I’ve never had a problem with pros getting outside help and get praised/critiqued by the judges on what they see. Because at the end of the day, the pro dancer always gets the last word on what goes out on Monday night. That’s why the routines that were nominated were Witney’s responsibility and as such the nomination should be hers and hers alone. Having said all the above, if Witney does win that Emmy I’ll be sure to grab some popcorn and watch the ton of shade that’ll get thrown her way.
I must say fair play to DWTS, it’s a very smart way to cover up the “outside help” debate, they leave it to the pros to sort out a “ghost choreographer” and as Spencer said if and when they need help, they use a remote location and take payment from the pro’s pocket rather than DWTS. That way should anything come out DWTS can deny knowledge and cover their own backs.
I feel a little sorry for Witney. I’m not trying to sound smart but I always knew that if any of the pros were getting outside help, she would be one of them. At the end of the day she’s 21 years of age and has never directly worked on anything of the magnitude of DWTS until last year when she got thrown in out of nowhere with no experience and just a season on troupe. She’s obviously a brilliant dancer (the best of the females IMO) but that doesn’t automatically make you a brilliant choreographer and teacher.
Now I don’t mean to be ugly….but the majority of the griping seems to be “the fam”. Just my opinion, but hard to take seriously. So, in their belief, the book I just wrote has about 5 sentences that my former thesis adviser suggested and I did. I even spoke with him about credit, but he said…what Lynne…1/100th of a percentage…lol.
@Lynne – I don’t think you’re being ugly 🙂 When you take a look at who the pros are that are giving the digital-side eye and plenty of passive aggressive tweets, it’s Jenna, Val, Peta, and Sharna…and I think it’s safe to say they run in the same circle. Mark has been silent on the topic. Derek tweeted congrats. Emma tweeted congrats. I haven’t been on Twitter much lately, but I don’t think any other pros have even mentioned it – so yeah, it really is just that group. The Butthurt Brigade, that’s what they ought to call themselves…
@M8 – Part of me thinks poor Witney is probably always going to get shade from not only some of the pros, but the fans as well – doesn’t matter what she does. I’ve seen the shade thrown since her SYTYCD days – seemed like she was always getting compared to Lindsey, and people said things like “Ugh, she’s so flashy and overconfident, I much prefer modest Lindsey!” And the shade continued when she joined the troupe – “She’s such a camera hog!” “She overdances and thinks she’s sooooo good!” The shade continued still when she got promoted to pro – “Ugh whyyyyy does Witney get to be a pro??? They should have given Lindsey another chance instead!!!!” “She is gonna overshadow her partner!” And you best believe the sh*t really hit the fan when she got Alfonso in season 19 – “NO FAIR! Sharna or Emma or Peta should have gotten a good partner before SHE did! She hasn’t earned it!” I had been on cloud 9 upon hearing that Alfonso was going to FINALLY be on the show (and I was thrilled that he got Witney), but when the first tweets I got after the announcement were from fans who were complaining about Witney getting him instead of another pro? Kind of a buzzkill. And the buzzkill continued when she got nominated for the Emmy and some of the pros decided to join in the shade throwing. Poor Witney unfortunately has the curse of being both beautiful and charismatic, on top of being young – and I’m sure some of the older, more seasoned (and perhaps less secure) pros see that and just seethe when they see this pretty young thing waltzing in and winning an MBT before they do. I can’t blame her for doing anything she’s done so far – she’s made the best of a great opportunity. It’s up to the other pros to up their game and earn the kudos like she has – but most would rather just bitch, moan, and throw shade. Sad.
@floppy – I’m honestly scared for when the day comes that it’s just DWTS vying for the Emmy nods – because not only will it be an all-out bloodbath amongst the pros for who has “earned it” and who hasn’t, but I feel like the overall quality of the nominations will also go down. The thing about SYTYCD is that it made the category really competitive – the DWTS routines had to be top-notch in order to pass muster against routines performed by 2 professionals. Take that away? Suddenly you have room for nominations like Rumer’s non-samba, Noah’s tango, and Robert’s waltz…dances that weren’t bad, per se, but were definitely weaker than what we’ve seen nominated in the past. But I also think SYTYCD’s departure could also open the field for nominations for other shows, too – a few years back, a choreographer won for a number he choreographed for an awards show. I don’t think DWTS will suddenly sweep that category, by any means – not if the very pro-contemporary, anti-ballroom Academy judges have anything to do with it.
This is all came down to entitlement issues and the mentality of “it’s someone’s turn to get a trophy”. So I agree with both of you ladies on your comments. Not trying to be ugly either but some of these mess are coming from “the Fam”. All those twitter exchanged sounds like sour grape to me. This is why all the pros on DWTS needed to be neutral in their action/behavior/views of other pros, ex: Sasha or a Emma. Don’t tell me when Sharna tweeted something like we are family so if someone gets a trophy we all happy it meant for all the pros. “Family” for her is “the Cbros Family otherwise she would’ve been happy and support other pros partner, not just tweeting to vote for Val and his partners. I can’t believe why some people trying to intimidate the Emmy to recognize these ghost choreographer. I agree with Floppy when SYTYCD gets cancelled there will be a battlefield with these so called pros of DWTS. I don’t see this happening with SYTYCD choreographers. I haven’t see Travis Wall saying that it’s “his turn” to win the Emmy.
M8, HE SAYS he contributed “greatly” – but anyone can say that. And Witney should get the lion’s share of the credit. After all, if a dance sucks she’s the one taking all the blame as well. That’s how it works. She’s good enough and has enough IT factor to be a pro on the show. This other person clearly does not. If that person were all that, THEY would be on the show. He’s not.
I don’t think Spencer was saying it’s his fault for taking Witney’s money and not getting a contract. I think Spencer is saying “suck it up, you were an assistant, she’s the one with her cred on the line.”
I also took from Spencer that it’s all on the pro and that DWTS doesn’t necessarily KNOW what’s going on. That much was clear from the fact that the ghost gets paid by the pro and they do all the work away from the regular rehearsal spaces. DWTS field producers aren’t sitting there saying “geez, we better keep this quiet.” They likely don’t know.
Witney is only on her third season. Spencer said he ghosted for a long damn time (and he hasn’t had to do it that recently, based on his own success). Do the math. Witney is FAR from the only pro getting help. Derek implied as much as well.
Witney has the Julianne factor. I saw it back in her SYTYCD stage. She has that unmistakable it factor that gets attention, both positive and negative, and it draws people in. But if you are a fan of someone other than Witney, you’re going to see that and see that it detracts from your favorite. I’m not saying she’s the choreographer that Jules is (although she could be), I’m saying she has a star quality. That’s why Derek and Julianne get so much shade from the fans of other pros. Jealousy. In other words – exactly what Courtney said. 🙂
People wishing for the end of SYTYCD so their fav can get an Emmy, better also hope that Derek leaves DWTS and doesn’t choreograph for TV, because without SYTYCD it will be a contest between Derek and Warren Carlyle or whoever else choreographs for award shows…probably Nappytabs.
The funny thing is, a lot of the pros INCLUDING Witney favorited those tweets that were supposedly throwing shade. Why do that? It’s all still assumption based except for the obvious guy that helped Witney.
Any of the female pros if they were worth their weight would have been able to create great routines while having Alfonso as a partner, so I don’t fault Witney for it, but this past season definitely proved (to me) that she needs someone who has a decent sense of ability to make her look good as a teacher/choreographer, hopefully she will learn to adapt in time.
MOST of the pros on this show need a partner with ability to do well on the show, CM. Witney is far from unique in this area – which is why I don’t get why people bitch about her. Derek is, in fact, the ONLY pro who has had *repeated* great success with someone with NO experience at all – people who are, in fact, not great dancers. Mark comes close to him on this score, but doesn’t seem to have the juice to take someone not well know far, even with experience. Val has had ONE partner with no experience and still had to have his win engineered for him. That and the fact that Rumer didn’t play his bullshit game. Hell, even WITH ringers, Val has fallen far in my estimation of him as a choreographer. Kym, Sharna and Emma seem to have the ability to craft entertaining routines for celebs with no skill or experience – but this is RARE. This is not a common thing that all pros do except Witney. On the contrary, Derek, Mark, Kym, Sharna and Emma are pretty much it. Jury is out on Allison and Artem. Tony routinely choreographs rather boring routines. Going back in time, Cheryl is erratic but is often very good with people with no experience, as is Karina. Peta worked wonders with Tommy, but prior to that people counted her out – with reason. Then there’s Keo. Who knows what he can do, but he’s hardly wowing us.
PH, I don’t necessarily mean dance experience, I also mean entertainment factor. Witney had Drew Carey in S18 Switch Up and excelled in using his strengths as an entertainer even if he couldn’t really dance. Chris was just a normal guy for lack of a better way to put it and Witney struggled with that (though it may have just been a Chris thing, obviously).
PH I think the fact that Witney and DWTS allegedly tried their hardest to get the guy nominated with Witney is a probable admission that he contributed considerably to the routines. Either way it doesn’t matter, he wasn’t the pro going out on Monday nights to perform the routine to the judges and millions of viewers.
I’d agree with your list regarding routines for celebs with no experience apart from that I probably wouldn’t put Emma in the Derek, Mark and Sharna bracket. But that’s just my opinion. Yes she did a fantastic job to get Bill E to the final, but I can’t remember being truly wowed or entertained by any of their dances, it was more Bill’s personality and never give up attitude that wowed and entertained me. Sorry for veering off track to reply to your last post.
If you have two guys who are not dancers – Drew and Chris – and she does well with one and not well with the other, then logic dictates that the celeb had something to do with it. And, as I recall, she finally figured a way to get him to count right. Not every single one of their routines sucked – there were a couple that were actually pretty entertaining.
From what I recall from Deep Throat, a big hurdle in Chris & Witney’s partnership for a good chunk of the season was the fact that Chris just didn’t really want to be there – in hindsight, that was probably around the same time sh*t was heading south with his gf Whitney, and I guess I can’t blame him for not really having his heart in it. But I do think it would definitely create a struggle between any pro and celeb pairing – it’s hard to motivate someone who kinda wants to bail.
I also want to say about Witney and chris.. The fact that she took him so far despite his difficulties with dancing actually says a lot. Believe it or not, people found them entertaining and probably liked her with him. Also, the TPTB kind of SET them up for a dramatic journey, right? Pair chris who JUST got engaged to Whitney with another pro named Witney? Keep in mind, SO much press was about chris and the whitneys whenever I searched “dwts” on Google. Producers probably loved that, and Witney had to work with what she got and defend chris. Obvious producer drama. And I actually don’t imagine chris going that far with another pro tbh, considering how.. “Bad” (I like some of his dances) he was at dancing. In my opinion He prob could have gotten eliminated first with someone else. Remember we thought he was fodder before the season started? I truly think Witney fans helped carry them far. And I feel Witney is appealing to the dwts demographic like how Julianne was. She’s young, sweet, nice, and has a lot of energy. She’s like “the granddaughter” or “sweet daughter” or “good little sister” for some viewers. And I like that. She’s actually really nice. And doesn’t seem catty.
The comments by the others pro are so hypocritical
Alan salazar helped sharna and val and the troupe he posted it on instagram and facebook when the routines where out even mark got help for the mario freestyle .i Honestly believe they all do , the only one that can make a comment about it is derek and we know he will never do that .
Also my fave routine of witney who got nominated was their jive and nobody claimed to have co choregraphed it it’s proof to me that she is good get even better with time
@Mariam, I think that’s exactly why they were mad. FOR Alan, nothing to do with Witney. Not being hypocrites. But everyone just assumed it was because of Witney.
PH, my point was basically that Chris wasn’t an entertainer, Drew is. Nothing to do with dance ability. Cody didn’t really want to listen to Witney either, and he COULD dance. I do think it’s a bit of teaching inexperience on Witney’s part, which is all I meant.
I don’t think you know that, CM. The point of that portion of the post is – blind tweeting, and passive aggressive tweeting is STUPID. You can’t do that and get mad when fans speculate and possibly take it the wrong way. It’s your own fault. And, as I said, you have no way of knowing what they were tweeting about. The timing was very coincidental. To say the least.
As for Chris…I guess I’m confused as to what that has to do with anything.
Interesting article and discussion. On Alan’s choreography reel on YouTube, posted well before the emmy nomination, he listed his dwts work as co-choreographer. But even if he did help create the routines he could have handled this situation with a lot more grace and kindness, preventing some of the negative backlash on Whitney and now himself.
There is NO way that the pro’s can know all the different genres being presented. As a professor, I have helped countless young people with their book ambitions: suggested contest, reworded sentences that didn’t say what they thought it did, and actually suggested a paragraph or two or more sometimes..lol. Sure, they are on the market…but never, ever would I ever think I should be named as a co-writer. This happens in every field but in different ways. How about this? If, as a therapist I view tapes of a family one of my colleagues is working with, and have a different strategy for them to try. When it works…should she say…”oh so glad it helped, but don’t thank me, my colleague came up with it.” It is just so wrong on so many counts. Now maybe the pro could acknowledge the person who helped, but wow with how rabid some these pro’s seem I’m not sure I would want the drama.
It seems that his choreography reel highlights the portions of the dances on DWTS that he was a ‘contributing choreographer.’ Interestingly, it included Val’s afro-samba with Janel. It seems that most of the portions he’s highlighted as something he’s contributed to are the portions of dances that veered out of the typical ballroom choreography. He also looks to have had a continual presence choreographing for many of the Vibe girls back to their days on SYTYCD. It doesn’t seem, at least from the reel, that he significantly contributed to any of the DWTS dances, so I’m not sure he has much of a leg to stand on in that regard; however he definitely looks to be a presence in a few of them from Season 19.
Last season, though, there were only two dances that were far from ballroom – Jazz and Contemporary. They should absolutely know ALL the other styles. Jazz and contemp haven’t been around that long in DWTS time, and in other seasons when they had the occasional bizarre style then it’s expected you get help.
That’s not what’s being discussed here. It sounds like they’ve been getting help for YEARS and on ballroom. There’s no shame in that, but they should own it. Instead we have the Fam throwing shade left and right. Witney clearly had assistance on Jazz – and she’s even cross trained. And she owned it. Derek, Mark, Lindsay, Witney and Jenna are likely all cross trained to some degree. There is NOTHING preventing all the other pros from cross training in the off season (like Allison for ballroom) if they want to continue to be successful on the show. If you want to improve as a dancer, and if you want to be successful on the show (instead of just having it manipulate for you to win), that’s what you do – especially when it becomes apparent that Jazz and Contemporary aren’t going away. Look how much time Derek spends with Nappytabs, Kyle Hanigami, Travis Wall, Tessandra Chavez – he’s a serious choreographer and he knows he can learn from all these people (and they from him). Some of the dancers on the show don’t seem to want to expand their knowledge and continue to grow – and actually be good or great choreographers in their own and other genres.
And you know what? There is nothing wrong with that either. Some great dancers are just NOT choreographers. They just aren’t. I don’t think I’ve EVER seen a dance or heard of a dance choreographed by tWitch – and he’s one of the best around. But if you aren’t willing to put in the time and effort, then you don’t really get to bitch about who gets Emmy nominations and who doesn’t. Or whine that you didn’t get one. This shit takes work and creativity. Step away from the family and meet new people that you can learn from. Some people are in a box and they don’t seem to care if they get out of it or not.
Daniel, based on what he said, his reel would NOT include dances where he ghosted. It goes against his thoughts on the subject. He’s not considering himself “contributing choreographer” on the dances he ghosted. I also think that we knew Spencer was involved in the Afro-samba…seems like there was an instagram or some such thing at the time. Honestly, though, if you’re a latin ballroom dancer/choreographer, I wouldn’t really expect you to need help on Afro-Samba – particularly not with those judges. Like they would know.
@PH Sorry if I wasn’t being clear. I was actually referencing Alan Salazar’s choreography reel.
Ah…okay. Must have been Alan that I remember seeing help Val too. My memory if vague on that score anyway.
Good point about cross training in the off season PH.
I also think Cheryl had some training in Argentine tango in the off season some years ago when that dance became a part of DWTS.
Gitte. Cheryl went to Argentina and did 6 weeks with Forever Tango? I think. This was because she fell in love with the Argentine Tango
She had special training in AT as well. I remember her commenting on that.
They can all do that, if they are invested in doing well.
Yes Nathan, I remember her doing Forever Tango too. But as Heidi said, she had training in AT as well. I can’t remember when it was, but I’m guessing it was shortly after it was introduced on DWTS (which was season 8).
Just a quick thought. Is there not a choreography team on DWTS anyway? To oversee if the routines are “suitable” or not? I don’t know. But I know there is over here on SCD
Adding to what Heidi said about not all dancers being choreographers: the bf is the same boat. Great dancer, but choreography is not something that comes easily to him, nor does he particularly enjoy it. He’s been dancing for almost 20 years and it’s still not something that comes naturally. All of his competition routines and his students’ showcase routines are courtesy of an outside choreographer – Bruno Collins, Michael Chapman, Shirley Ballas, etc. Interesting to note: all three of the names I mentioned are retired from competition and don’t perform anymore – therefore, they have the time to choreograph. It’s not a quick or easy thing – and it can be very time-consuming. Even the number one Latin couple in the world, Riccardo & Yulia, don’t choreograph their own routines – and they don’t choreograph for other people, either. They just don’t have the time – so the fact that Derek and Mark most likely do all of their own choreography is something I applaud…because it’s not everyone’s bailiwick.
Thus, I don’t begrudge anyone for using an outside choreographer. But I, like Heidi, would like to see them own up to it – instead of just casting the side eye at other pros who actually get nominated for stuff. It’s awfully easy to act like you’re taking the moral high road by acting as if you’re advocating for Alan by sending out passive aggressive tweets about people being “wronged” and either intentionally or accidentally casting aspersions about the character of another pro. It’s a very pretty place to be in – the one fighting for the little guy. But what if the shoe was on the other foot, and one of the pros doing the shade-throwing had gotten nominated for a routine for which Alan had helped them? Would they be advocating as vocally then? I have a hard time believing that
GolumVal, whose fingers could barely be pried off that gold MBT long enough to congratulate his partner, would be so vocal about using outside assistance. What about Peta? Jenna? Sharna? Beginning to think that Witney is just the unfortunate first pro (that we know of) to receive outside assistance with a routine that actually ended up getting nominated – and of course the vultures are going to circle piously above.As for Alan – starting to question the character of this dude. If he wants credit for all of the good routines he assisted with, then I feel like he should also own up to any truly sh*tty routines he assisted with, too – and lord knows how many times he “helped” some of the other pros and the results weren’t so impressive. Some of the truly turdtastic routines we’ve cringed at over the years could have been ones he ghosted on – and methinks he would not be so eager to claim some of those in his repertoire. That’s the true double-edged sword with ghosting: you don’t get to claim credit publicly, but you also don’t have to take the fall if it sucks the big one. Perspective…
@NathanUK – No choreography team that I’m aware of – the only “special team” I’m aware of is the one up in the booth that has to watch for potential FCC violations (i.e. swearing, nip slips, Chong doing the weed smoking sign, etc.) and get the cameras to pan away before the viewing audience sees it 🙂
The only thing that comes close is Mandy Moore – but she’s there more for artistic direction and blocking, in addition to pro number choreo (which really needs to go to someone new).
Have you ever noticed how high she is on some of the pros while she barely mentions others (such as Derek and Mark) – why do you suppose that is, eh?? 🙂 Derek and Mark do all their own shit that she would normally help with. But I’m sure that’s just a coincidence…. 😉
A little late to the discussion here but wanted to jump in.
I thought what Spencer said was spot on. If you are going to work without a contract then you have to be prepared for the consequences. I think so many dancers/choreographers are just looking to make a buck because it can be a difficult professional to earn a decent wage, that they aren’t really thinking long term. To be honest, I thought the IG post from the guy who helped Witney was unnecessary and indirectly added fuel to the haters to continue to hate on Witney. I get it, he wanted to get some credit since he wasn’t nominated, but even though he said Witney tried to get his name added I still think it made people more upset with her for some reason…like his sob story is her fault.
It’s been interesting to watch the pros with Witney during the tour and during the Emmy nom. I never realized how jealous and shady they are towards her…especially her supposed BFF Jenna. Jenna’s true colors have shown through during the tour. While she likes to claim Wit as her “sister” all she does is try and embarrass her in a passive aggressive way while trying to kiss the ass of Peta and the rest of the fam. That girl has no identity beyond the fam and if people think Witney was a camera hog then clearly they’ve never watched Jenna (who is NEVER on time with everyone else in group numbers).
It’s just sad to me that Witney’s first nom comes with so much negativity.
@DLT – It is incredibly interesting to look at just who is posting pictures with whom on the tour – and yes, Jenna has been about as shady as it gets with regards to Witney. I found the pic of her with Lindsey and Witney and the whole “sisters” bit to be a coincidentally-timed attempt at saving face – perhaps she’s regretting tweeting out that “two-faced and not worth much” e-card. Most of Wit’s pictures lately have been selfies or pictures with Alfonso – I think that’s telling. I don’t envy Wit one bit, having to share a tour bus with some of these hags – at this point, I think the only pro that gets along with everybody (and doesn’t maintain silly allegiances to any one group) is Emma. Really starting to think the Fam is about like the Scientologists or the Westboro Baptist Church – the whole “We’re right, everyone else is wrong, we are the authority on all this is correct and moral, and if you aren’t with us, you’re against us!!!” mentality just seems to get stronger every year…wonder if DWM is going to try and apply for tax exempt status anytime soon…
@Heidi – Mandy is so low-budget anymore – she’s been reduced to hair-flipping, Beyonce-esque routines for the girls and shirt-doffing routines for the guys. And you just KNOW she is probably behind some of the more head-scratching moves in some of Val’s routines – I’m convinced that Rumer’s terrible “Bootylicious” jazz was something out of her repertoire. But hey, she can play favorites all she wants – guess the best she can hope for after getting ousted from SYTYCD is ghosting for the weak choreographers on the show. Derek and Mark would let hell freeze over before asking her for help.
Considering Witney’s youth, her win with Alfonso in her second season and the fact that she’s got a nom, she’s going to be the new lightning rod for the haters. Success breeds envy, jealous and all those other ugly things. Especially in the crowd of “it’s someone else’s (aka MY) turn to win” BS.
Both the Emmy’s and winning DWTS takes a lot more than just talent. It’s more complicated, like who else is competing. Last year’s SYTYCD clearly was down a bit in the creativity department – hence two DWTS nominations. The way SYTYCD is going this year, we might up it to three next year…IF the DWTS pros can get their shit together, get creative and do the work. They have to be good. Emmy rules say there can be NO nominations at all, if they feel nothing is worthy – at least, that’s how it used to be. The downfall of SYTYCD doesn’t mean a windfall of nominations for DWTS – not at all. It could simply mean that those choreographers coming in to DWTS as guests (aka Travis Wall) take the nominations from them, Derek wins more…or there are no nominations at all. The pee wee baseball mentality doesn’t work outside DWTS…unless it’s actual PEE WEE baseball. 🙂
“Sharing a tour bus with some of these hags”. That cracked me up.
I find the relationship between Witney and Alfonso really heartwarming. He seems to have a protective, big brother type relationship with her. She obviously trusts and looks up to him. It’s sweet.
Mandy is directly responsible for the dumbing down routines for the lady pros. She reduces these professionally trained dancers to little more than glorified burlesque dancers. There’s a routine for the girls in the tour that would look right at home in a strip club. It has Moore’s imprint all over it. There was a lot of young girls in the audience, lots of them with posters saying things like “I heart Peta!”. It was really sweet. However, what impression do these young girls take away when they see their idols dancing so overtly sexual? Again, these are professional dancers who have spent years perfecting their technique reduced to nothing more than a girly show.
Choreograpy is very much a collaborative art form. After all you’re not painting on a still canvas, you’re working with live people. Sometimes the dancers you’re setting your steps on may dance them in an unexpected way that changes the course of the sequence. Sometimes you just get blocked and need an outside opinion on how to move forward.
Also, production on the show plays a part in choreography. They may want the dance to be contained in a smaller place or to feature some technical whiz bang production stuff. It’s a collaborative process.
Any pro or troupe member making passive aggressive comments on Witney’s nomination is just showing their true colors and it ain’t pretty.
I think this is why Derek doesn’t choreograph in advance, Susan2. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he’s the most successful pro on the show.
Courtney, can I ask what ““two-faced and not worth much” e-card.”
is in reference to? I’m pretty aware of the Fam’s shade throwing I think its really disappointing and shallow of Jenna to just switch alliances like that… obviously has been sucked in by their ridiculousness, has probably always had those tendancies since SYTYCD.
Didnt notice that Witney doesnt feature in many photos asides from Emmas.
Ugh the whole thing is so pre-school. Say whatever about So You Think but there is a much bigger sense of camraderie between contestants and choreographers, and it does appear to be less manipulated then DWTS..
not that editing doesnt go on of course 😉
Love the site, great work as per usual
@Eabha – This is the tweet in question: https://twitter.com/Dance10Jenna/status/621196659758727168 The suspicious part of it is that after Sharna’s series of vague tweets about not getting nominated for an Emmy, then implying that “in a way, she did”, she retweeted this. Add to that the fact that Jenna suspiciously stopped posting pix with Witney around that time, and I think some bad blood developed between the two of them.
Also, this picture makes me wonder if the boys are also freezing Wit out…the body language and facial expressions just seem…forced to me. https://instagram.com/p/5vpRLdJ5Qp/?taken-by=witneycarson
@courtney
It’s really come down to jealousy . A while ago i read on this site i think how all the female pro were getting along .
I think it was because none of the female pro was getting as succesfull as the guys now with witney win and emmy nod you get to see that the “we are all getting along “was just for show .
For me the worst is sharna she seems to think that everything has to go her way and when it doesn’t she turns nasty close second is jenna
I just can’t wait for the dwts tour to be over in a few days so Witney doesn’t have to be stuck with those phony & jealous pros until sept?…
All the hate, shade & bs talk she was getting on IG/Twitter last month ( and still now) when the nominations came out was so unnecessary & juvenile. Witney deserved that nomination & with all the shit she’s been getting, I HOPE she wins the emmy in September. That would definetly be the ultimate “F*** you” to all the slaty ass haters?…. And to some of the hating ass pros/troupe as well……..
I have been tracking the tour crew on SM and Jenna and Witney have hung out since the Emmy nom (and Jenna’s — IMO — fake IG post about Lindsay and Wit being her “sisters”) but that might more be a result of the natural clique of the tour people. Emma and Brittany are BFFs, the guys always seem to go golfing, and though Jenna is obsessed with Peta and Sharna, Peta seems to ride solo most of the time. That being said, I do think Jenna is the type to be a frenemy more than anything else…there is a reason most of her personal and professional life are tied exclusively to the fam.
And this is why blind tweeting is soooo stupid when you are anything close to a celebrity. That just reads shitty.
Courtney, Mandy is very capable of actual jazz not that atrocious bootylicious thing. Jazz is her forte. She does suck at ballroom, but I think it goes a bit far to say she is bad at something she is actually highly qualified for. She never even does pop jazz (which is what the bootylicious dance was trying to be) or anything close to it. And she has been nominated for emmys several times.
Also she wasn’t ousted from sytycd. What makes you think that?
Floppy, all I’ve seen out of Mandy these past few seasons on DWTS is the shallow, one-dimensional hair-flipping and gyrating she’s been having the female pros do. That’s HARDLY jazz – I don’t care how “highly qualified” she is, what I’ve seen from her on DWTS has been crap. Never does “pop jazz”? Then what the hell do you call the choreography to “B.O.S.S.” and “I Am Woman”? This is not the same quality of work for which she got nominated for an Emmy.
And while she may not have been ousted from SYTYCD (my mistake), I notice she is definitely choreographing for it less – she went from 8-9 routines per season, down to 3-6. Part of me thinks Nigel taking her to task for her choreography on the air during season 7 probably stung a bit – and suddenly she turned up on DWTS.
You can’t work on DWTS and be on SYTYCD, generally speaking. If Mandy signed a contract with DWTS, it likely precludes her being on SYTYCD. Hell, Nigel practically had to beg to get Allison back, and he straight up said that DWTS won’t let Derek choreograph for them. It’s somewhat rare, and the pros have to get permission. Why would Mandy be any different?
If she’s so good at Jazz, why is she doing so damn poorly on DWTS? She’s working with trained dancers, after all.
Right but nobody on DWTS is a trained contemporary or jazz dancer. That is really not her signature style of choreo at all. She has said many times she doesn’t actually choreograph on the show, and you can see that when what she produces on the show is nothing to do with her work elsewhere.
Er, Allison is, Floppy. And Derek, Witney, Lindsay, Jenna – about everyone out of Utah – has some degree of cross training.
And she’s on record has choreographing nearly every opening dance last season. If not all of them.
I felt like this was going to come to a head when Louis started in on this early last season. I would guess that Derek and Sharna have gotten the last choreography help over their tenures, because both really have such a talent for it. I think Mark is pretty close, though I suspect that Shirley and Corky helped Mark in his early seasons — but he does so much outside of traditional ballroom, and it’s really his own flair. Not surprisingly, I find these three to be the best choreographers currently.
As for Witney — I caught an old Fresh Prince episode, and I have to say, at least some of the flair from her routines came from Carlton moves, which were sprinkled at least in the Jive. I think that Alfonso’s performances were so strong, that it pushed very good choreo into nomination territory (also with a fall off from SYTYCD). I have no trouble with that. As for the credits — that’s a hard call. My gut says that if the help she got was really minimal or inconsequential, she and the producers would not have tried to share the credit. There are other people who may troubleshoot or give a little input, but I’d venture to say there was more here, contract or no contract. Absolutely no one is legally obliged to share credit under the terms of the contract, but I think it speaks well of Witney and her integrity that she at least tried to remedy the situation.
The larger issue for me is this: the show has actively avoided discussing outside help with choreo, and I think the show has an interest in continuing to do so. It’s a cleaner narrative to have the pro-student exist without all of this outside help (except for score manipulation or showmances that is). But it has to be super frustrating for the pros who do it all themselves (Derek, Sharna, Mark…maybe some others?)
I would love to see DWTS go the route of giving credit to anyone who helped the pro choreograph the routines as the routines are performed. It’s no secret now that they all often have outside help – some more than others I’m sure. For example, Val basically made it clear that Jenna helped him choreograph a lot season 20. I’m sure Peta did as well once eliminated. Though lots of people still like to pretend the show is about the celeb, it’s clear most vote based upon the pro they like best at this point. Would Witney & Alfonso had won if it was known publicly, on live TV, that she hired an outside choreographer for those great dances? They were great, and Alfonso was great, but do we believe that lots of votes didn’t go to Witney just because we thought she choreographed that all by herself? That being said, since pro popularity largely influences which celebs go home with a MBT, I’d like to know who the most talented pros actually are. We all know they can dance. Generally speaking, their dancing abilities are pretty similar. Really where the differences are is on the choreography / creativity front. So – tell us who choreographed what, and with who’s help. Seems fair to me. It’s not right that troupe members like Jenna are putting all this effort into choreographing pro’s routines and getting no credit. And it’s not fair to think these pros are getting credit and votes and Emmy noms if they didn’t come up with the choreo themselves. Having help isn’t a big deal, but I’d like to know who gets more help than others. Yes? No? Just me?
Heidi – can you change your name, perhaps to something closer to your real one, to avoid confusion with me? Thx in advance.
As for DWTS giving credit – if you listen to what Spencer actually says, it seems quite clear that DWTS doesn’t actually KNOW when it happens unless it is someone contracted with the show already. The pro pays the helper out of their own pocket and the work is done away from the typical rehearsal spaces. As for Val “making it clear”? Really? Show us some proof that she helped him “most of season 20” and he made it clear – and if that’s true he needs to get someone else.
The votes went to Witney because of her great choreography?? My ass. Alfonso was a great get for that show, he was entertaining as hell. As for your supposition that “people vote for the pros” – I don’t think you could be more wrong. The INTERNET people vote for the pros, but they make up a small percentage of the viewing audience. If people voted only for the pros, Derek would win every season because he’s beating all of them in the social media game.
Also, if someone who is CONTRACTED to the show, like Jenna, actually co-choreographed a significant part of Val’s dances, she would HAVE TO BE included in the submittal to the academy. That’s the rules and it is not in DWTS best interests to break those rules. AND, to top it off, it’s very possible she WAS submitted as co-choreographer but since the dances weren’t good enough to be nominated (not even close) we won’t know for sure. You are making an assumption. Quite a few assumptions, actually.
Adding to what PH said, I find that the bulk of the viewing audience wouldn’t know good choreography if it bit them in the ass – they generally vote for what they find entertaining. Case in point? Tommy’s cha cha in season 19. From a strictly choreographic standpoint, it was highly remedial and was hardly anything innovative or terribly unique. But I’ll be damned if that dance didn’t entertain the hell out of me and a good chunk of voters – and that continued to be the theme of Tommy’s dances throughout the season: marginal choreography that was executed in such a way that you didn’t care that it was pretty kindergartenish, because you were so entertained by it. And while the choreography Alfonso was given was actually good, I don’t think that’s why he was getting votes – he, like Tommy, was a fantastic entertainer. Pretty sure he could have been doing the hokey pokey and I still would have voted for him – that much of a showman, he was.
I’m glad others are not into the Mandy Moore choreography anymore. She put together some pretty great group numbers when she first started working on the show, but it seems that her well of good ideas has dried up. This past season had some of the most boring pro numbers I’ve seen in a long while. There’s nothing innovative or interesting anymore. Even the anniversary show opening was meh. I used to really like some of her pieces, but there was nothing special about last season. The “I Am Woman” piece was virtually a carbon copy of the routine a different choreographer did to that song several seasons ago. It seemed that the pro numbers were a bit of an afterthought this past season. Hopefully, that changes for 21, but I’m not holding my breath.
Ew. Getting super sick of all these mind games on the show. Like really? Courtney re: instagram snap of boys & Wit – I 100% see with the body language and facial expressions, awkward much? Couldnt be more disappointed in Sasha… And I’m sorry but Keo doesnt appear to be all there to me. Like what does Emma see in him. Vapid, big headed. Entitled.. How many Val’s do we have to put up.with.
The only reason I don’t believe that the body language is meant to be a slam at Witney is because I really can’t believe Sasha would do that, rather to me when I saw this pic before I just thought they were trying to act gangster or something. All through the tour, most of the guys will have pics of them all together except Sasha who seems to be with the girls most of the time.
I don’t think it’s fair to say the ordinary viewer doesn’t care who choreographs the routine. Why make a secret out of it in the first place? If they would show everytime, who receives help when and what for, I think there would be an effect on the outcome of the show.
If it doesn’t matter there is no point in discussing pros and routines in the first place. How can you say Witney is a better choreographer than Lindsey, Anna, Chelsie or Lacey? Then the only reason for her to be on the show is because she is young and easy on the eyes, cause there are many better dancers around the world.
And what about Allison, why is she on the show other then the fact that she is well known thru SYTYCD and she is married to “moviestar” tWitch, cause she has no ballroom skills at all and do we even know if she choreographs anything?
What about Derek? Why praise him for his choreo when it doesn’t matter who choreographs what?
The ordinary viewer just doesn’t care because there is no reason for them to question it if pros to it by themselves, they don’t show it and I think the viewers assume everything is done by the pro.
I think the only risk Witney took by paying Spencer was the money for a bad routine. If the routine sucked, so what? Alfonso would have gotten good points anyway because he can dance no matter what, suck it up, on to the next routine.
How high is the risk asking an Emmy nominated Jazz choreographer for help on an Jazz routine in the first place? She wouldn’t have asked for help if she could have done a better routine by herself. The reward is much higher. She got a lot of praise, votes and an Emmy nomination. And in the long run she can keep her job.
Same with the Chmerkovskiys, if you get help, show it.
Derek has earned his reputation, others should too.
I’m not hating on Witney, I think it was very noble for her to give credit to Spencer.
I just like transperency cause everybody is trying to keep their job.
That’s fine, artdeco, because no one said that ordinary viewer “doesn’t care” who choreographs the routine. That’s your spin on things that were said in response to someone who said the majority of people vote for the choreographer. Which is BS.
Er, of course one of the reasons that Witney is on the show is because she’s got the *IT* factor. It’s TELEVISION. They aren’t going to have unattractive pros on the show, sad to say. Anna was no great choreographer, Lindsey wasn’t that great of a teacher, Chelsie and Lacey had their run – and I don’t remember anything particularly special out of either of them except for some of Lance’s routines and a dance Chelsie did with *Derek*. When it comes to all around requirements to be on DWTS, I don’t think you can hold any of those women up higher than Witney. It’s not just choreography, or dance, or teaching – you have to have a combination, plus that secret it factor.
Allison?? See above for the reasons she was on the show the past two seasons. She’s a well known dancer, she’s a GREAT contemporary dancer, and she’s attractive. Again, it’s a TV SHOW. When are you guys going to remember that little factoid, eh?? You wanna gripe, gripe about someone like Val or Tony – the mystery is MUCH larger where Tony is concerned, IMO. Except that he look better with the much older ladies.
As for Derek – we know he choreographs amazing shit, he’s also got the IT factor in spades. NO ONE other that YOU said that it doesn’t matter who choreographs what – we’re just not saying it’s a crisis of epic proportions like you seem to believe. We’re also saying there’s more to the show than that.
Where did you see or hear that Witney paid Spencer anything?? Spencer was not the person who helped Witney – some no name dude trying to grab some attention, was that person. You also have NO idea how often she gets help or WHY she gets help. Sometimes you’re blocked. Sometimes you just don’t have time. There are a million reasons why you ask someone for help.
You can tell when a contestant is living large while dancing on the show. The sheer joy a contestant displays while dancing is infectious. See Bill Engvall, not great dancer compared to his competitors, but the love, dedication and and sheer unbridled delight he displayed, dance after dance made the technical aspects of the routines seem like an afterthought. He was a visual equivalent of the joy and freedom of dance.
I think of Alfonzo and Witney the same way. When you watch a contestant and their partner and they make you want to jump off your couch and dance along with them, then that’s the joy of dance working on you.
Witney saw the possibilities of Alfonzo and made them come to life in a visual and emotionally satisfying way. For that reason alone she deserves the Emmy nod. Keeping her s**t together while making her partner shine, is just icing on the cake.
Word, Susan – and as Val showed season after season, having a ringer is a lot of pressure. Some don’t choreograph well under that kind of pressure. Witney held up quite well, especially considering her youth.
Witney also didn’t take the easy way out with Alfonzo like some pros do with their ringers. She could have given him easy, uninspired choreography ….coughMaks/Merylcough…., or use a gimmick ….coughVal/Janelshowmancecough…., but she didn’t. Even with an injured partner she still gave him interesting, entertaining and challenging routines.
Wasting the potential of your ringer is worse for me than using outside help if needed to make your partner look great on the dance floor.
Agreed, Susan2. Given that a significant portion of our readers think that Alfonso is the best male dancer ever to do DWTS, I think it’s safe to say that whoever got him was going to have to pull out all the stops with the choreography, or risk him being let down as a dancer. Really and truly, aside from Derek, I’m not sure that any of the DWTS pros (male OR female) would have been adequately prepared to choreograph the routines he really needed to shine – so again, I wouldn’t begrudge ANYONE for using an outside choreographer. And given that Witney was the only female pro that season with any sort of tap experience (which is Alfonso’s bailiwick), it was probably best that she got him – I don’t think I would have enjoyed watching Peta or Sharna fumbling over tap steps in an attempt to keep up with Alfonso in the finale. Again, I think this all boils down to Witney just getting dealt a bit of a crap hand: she’s the first DWTS pro to get nominated for an Emmy for a routine that she had help choreographing, so it’s as if her detractors are trying to “make an example of her”, so to speak – I also think she’s cursed with charisma, beauty, and that “IT” factor that some of the other pros seem to lack, and she’s going to be a magnet for envy. And I just have to wonder – if it was Sharna/Val/Peta/Jenna/whoever else that got nominated for this routine instead, would we still be seeing such an uproar? I have a feeling the normally quite vocal Fam would suddenly be rather silent…
EH! Producers think they found Julianne 2.0 in Witney and that’s why they’re pimping her. It is what it is.
Jennnniifffffeeerrrrrrrr, go eat a Snickers.
I think the only reason Witney is getting shit on is because she jumped the invisible line to get the Emmy nom. With their “everyone gets a trophy” mentality, it clearly wasn’t her turn. She didn’t stay in her place like a good little girl. So, fans of the Fam are grasping at any straw they can to bitch about her. But the hypocrites would be silent if Val or Peta got a nomination. It’s that same syndrome that has morons coming in here complaining about Derek always getting the great dancers, while turning a blind eye to the roster of ringers that Val’s been dealt. There’s no getting around it.