PureDWTS Court Rants: The Argument in Favor of Outside Choreographers
Ever since the “Choreography Emmy-gate” scuttlebutt erupted last summer, there seems to be a new, controversial topic I see thrown around more and more amongst the fans: the pros using/not using outside choreographers. And there have been offshoots of that topic as well – how much credit outside choreographers should be given (if any), the contractual ins-and-outs of using outside choreographers, and whether or not the use of an outside choreographer somehow makes a pro “less talented”. And honestly – it kinda gets my goat, because fans that know little to nothing about how choreography works suddenly have their noses in the air about some of the pros on the show using them. So I’ve been meaning to do this for awhile now: just a post setting the record straight, and hopefully addressing some of the misguided opinions I’ve heard about the use of outside choreographers on the show.
Misguided Opinion #1: A pro that uses an outside choreographer isn’t as good as one who doesn’t.
Hate to call you guys out, but this one seems like it’s being screamed the loudest by some ardent Derek fans that subscribe to the belief that Derek doing all his own choreography = Derek > everyone else. You know which other pro does all of his/her own choreography? Allison. And I would argue that she’s not been as successful as some pros that DO utilize an outside choreographer, as she got called out twice last season for having overly-complex, hard-to-follow choreography. Here’s the reality that I don’t think a lot of viewers understand: VERY FEW PROS ARE A TRIPLE THREAT. And by triple threat, I mean they dance, they teach, and they choreograph, and are proficient at all three. Why are there so few that can do all three very well? BECAUSE THERE JUST ISN’T ENOUGH TIME. This applies to dancers not on the show as well – there are very few professional ballroom dancers that have enough time (and energy) to dance professionally, teach their students, and also choreograph (either for themselves, for their students, or both). I think most are lucky if they can hit on two out of three – and I would say the one that gets omitted first when there’s a time constraint is choreography, as that’s something you can easily outsource. Most pros I know utilize an outside choreographer for their competition routines and showcase routines – and the ones doing the choreography are usually retired pros with some degree of acclaim from their professional career (i.e. Shirley Ballas, Wendy Johnson, Bruno Collins, etc.) They themselves are no longer dancing, so they have time (and the experience) to choreograph for other people. Even the currently World Professional Latin Champions, Riccardo & Yulia, use an outside choreographer for their routines. On top of that – some pros just aren’t natural-born choreographers. One of my friends that teaches readily admits that she’s terrible at choreographing routines – she can perform the hell out of them, and is fantastic at actually teaching students how to do them; but sit her down and tell her to actually come up with a routine? It’s just not something that comes easily to her. It didn’t come easily to Tristan, either – I remember him mentioning in more than one interview that he hates choreographing. It’s like asking an actor to also write and direct the picture he’s starring in – just not enough time or broadness of skill, unless you’re Clint Eastwood (and he’s had a lot of practice).
In addition, with so many non-traditional ballroom dances being added to the DWTS repertoire in recent years, it’s entirely possible that a pro could get saddled with a dance that they actually aren’t familiar with – or with which they only have limited experience. Is it somehow morally superior to pretend as though you’re familiar enough with a dance that you really have no experience with (and just limp through a routine), than to admit “I need help!” and get someone who’s actually experienced enough to choreograph a solid routine for your celeb? Before the days when pros could actually call in for backup if they needed help, Derek had to resort to scouring the internet for directions on how to do a jitterbug. It turned out alright, but when he needed help with a bhangra, he wasn’t above calling in an outside choreographer to help. Hell, Cheryl wasn’t too proud to admit when she didn’t know squat about bolero during all-stars – she enlisted the help of Tony and 4 other pro friends to try and churn out something halfway decent for Emmitt.
Bottom line? When there’s limited time, you’ve got limited experience, and you want the best for your partner – there’s no shame in using an outside choreographer. Doing your own choreography doesn’t necessarily make you a good pro – but keeping your celeb’s best interests at heart does. Think of choreographic skills as the free gift with purchase – not the main item you’re after.
Misguided Opinion #2: Any outside choreographers used should be given recognition…PERIOD.
I have to partially blame a handful of pros that were passive-aggressively tweeting about “giving credit where it’s due” and “righting a wrong” after Emmygate for this one, as they seemed to give some fans the impression that anytime you get help (no matter how small!) with your choreography, the helper deserves credit, and you must provide it in a very public & grandiose manner. I personally think this is a bit impractical, for multiple reasons – the chief being that often these “helpers” are not the creative masterminds behind the routines, and have really only stepped in to offer assistance with steps (Spencer Liff confirmed this in an Afterbuzz episode); to be forced to acknowledge them so publicly can give the impression that they contributed more than they actually did. Sorry, but if Sharna steps in and helps Witney with 1 trick in her salsa, I don’t think that necessitates some huge recognition for Sharna – the bulk of the choreography, the creative concept, the costumes/staging/etc. is still Witney’s. And I’ve seen a few suggest that DWTS flash something up on the screen after the dance saying that the pro “had outside assistance” from [insert choreographer here] or something, but to me – that just seems to be another opportunity to over-complicate a show that has already become increasingly over-complicated…plus, it kinda detracts from the pros, who have become celebrities in their own right and have often become the main reason viewers tune in. If the pros are a big draw, I think it behooves the show keep up the impression that they’re all fabulous at what they do – I don’t think the average viewer needs to know that they may, on occasion, receive outside help with their choreography; it likely ruins a bit of the magic for some. I’d prefer to think my favorite comedians all write their own jokes – to find out they had other folks doing their leg work would probably bum me out a bit. And anything that keeps the show magical for viewers is a good thing, I think.
Aside from practical reasons for not recognizing outside choreographers, there’s also some legal reasons why it doesn’t happen. As Spencer stated in the Afterbuzz video, many of these outside choreographers are brought in to “ghost” – meaning they know up front that they will NOT be getting recognition for whatever choreography they’re contributing. They are paid out-of-pocket by the pros themselves to meet off-site (when the celeb is not around) and help with choreography, and then they quietly go on their way. If an outside choreographer “ghosts”, I see no reason why they should get recognition later on – they’re very aware of how ghosting works, and they know that silence is kinda part of the deal. So for some (*cough*AlanSalazar*cough*) to suddenly start whining about not getting credit after the fact, it’s a little…dumb. If the outside choreographer wants recognition, then things get more complicated – a formal contract has to be drawn up between the show and the outside choreographer being used, and it becomes the show’s responsibility to foot the bill. This is also the only way that an outside choreographer not in regular employ of the show can be recognized as a nominee, should a particular piece of choreography be meritorious enough to earn a nomination. It’s an academy rule: no formal contract = no name on the nomination. This explains why Witney’s name was the only one on the nomination for her routines with Alfonso this past summer – Alan Salazar only ghosted on those routines, so no formal contract was drawn up…and thus, the Academy wouldn’t add his name to the nomination. But again – all things he knew up front when he agreed to ghost. And this isn’t a new rule…not sure why some think they’re so special that a rule that has been around for YEARS should be changed for them.
Misguided Opinion #3: The outside choreographer, if used, is responsible for the whole routine.
I was fairly certain this wasn’t the case (based on dance teacher friends’ experiences with outside choreographers), and Lindsay basically confirmed it in the interview she gave us. But I have to say I was a tad appalled at how many fans’ noses I saw in the air during Alek & Lindsay’s freestyle – I praised the creativity of the concept, only to be hit with several tweets saying “yeah, but Lindsay uses an outside choreographer” or “not her idea, outside choreography”. Aside from the shock I still seem to get when witnessing the increasing arrogance and dismissive-ness of some DWTS fans, I was a tad taken aback that fans automatically assumed the pro had zero input in the choreography process when an outside choreographer was brought in to help. In what world does it make sense for the pro, who is the one who best knows their partner’s strengths & weaknesses, to just say “Hi Alan. Come up with a paso, choreograph it, come up with costumes & sets, and I’ll just sit her and tape it on my GoPro”? It makes NO sense whatsoever to completely relinquish control – and it doesn’t happen. In my experience, outside choreographers are brought in to do just that – choreograph. You tell them the dance, the concept, the theme, etc. and give them a realistic idea of what your partner is capable of, and they give you steps – and you work through it WITH them. Then, once they’re done choreographing, it’s up to the pro to take the routine and teach their celeb, and possibly tweak the routine to fit them better. When all is said and done, the pro is still doing the bulk of the work – they’re coming up with a concept, they’re collaborating on the choreography, they’re teaching it to their celeb, and they’re changing choreography as necessary. All the ghost does is show up and start putting together steps – and you have to give them something to start from. Back in my competition days, if my partner and I had saved up enough money to book a few hours with Shirley and get some showcase choreography, I’m pretty sure she would have said something to the tune of “Are you out of your mind???” if we just came in and said “Just choreograph something…anything!” and did not give her some direction to work in. I always think of Broadway shows: the choreographer (be it Jerome Robbins, Twyla Tharp, Bob Fosse, etc.) always knows ahead of time what the storyline is, what the music is, and what the scene is – they choreograph USING THAT; they don’t completely start from scratch.
Misguided Opinion #4: It’s not fair that Witney caught flak for using one, while nobody is giving Lindsay a hard time!
This post at DWTSConfessions on tumblr that Julia shared with me seems to indicate that I need to address this. This is really kind of an oversimplification, and I don’t know that the person that wrote it really understood the full story: it wasn’t really using an outside choreographer that Witney caught flak for – it was using one and then not giving credit…which if you actually read what I said in my second point, is not really her fault anyway. And in all honesty, I think a lot of the ire that Witney drew during Emmygate was the result of some other pros (Sharna, Peta, Jenna, and probably some bitching from Val, too) throwing Twitter tantrums about Academy rules, but conveniently being vague and then letting prying fans draw their own conclusions. In Sharna’s case, she also seemed to hint that she had actually assisted Witney in some of her choreography for Alfonso, but wasn’t actually given credit – so I think that was more what got Witney in trouble than actually using an outside choreographer. I think a lot of fans would be shocked at just how many of the pros use an outside choreographer and just don’t talk about it – there’s one former pro from the show that one of my sources swears never actually did any of his/her own choreography, and always showed up to rehearsal with ready-made routines for his/her partner from an outside choreographer. And this pro NEVER talked about it. And to Lindsay’s credit – she’s always been pretty open about the fact that she’s used one, and really gave some great insight into the use of outside choreographers in this interview we did with her not long ago. I’m not even sure that she was using one back during Victor’s season – if I had to guess, she probably was not super flush with cash at that point, and may not have been able to afford it. And as for this season – the fact that Wanya made a point of saying that it was “all Lindsay’s choreography” in week 1 makes me think she may have boned up on her choreography skills to the point where she might not need one for every single dance…even scheisty Alan Salazar acknowledges that Lindsay does the bulk of her own choreography. I’m guessing the post was written by a (rather immature) Witney fan, and didn’t actually take into account things like…oh, y’know, FACTS…but I still feel like a lot of shade is getting thrown Lindsay’s way without good reason…so I thought I would just clear this one up.
So what are your thoughts on outside choreographers and their use on the show? Do they enhance the show? Hurt the show? Should there be certain rules about using them?
I agree with it all Court!
This was a very interesting post. I kinda forgot about Cheryl and the bolero thing and Derek watching videos that time. That was a great point about Allison. With her (and I’m a fan) you kinda have no clue what you are going to get. It’s either something really good or the complete opposite (her run with andy is a perfect example). I think I would classify edyta in the same way. As for witney I’m mostly confused by her. With Alfonso she had a great creative streak and some great dances and had the same attitude gene it came to Cody. Then I look at her pairing with chris and Von this season and wonder where that attitude went. At least with Carlos it didn’t seem like she was slightly checked out.
I hate autocorrect. When not gene lol.
honestly it’s whatever the producers have in their contracts. if contract allows for outside then let them. as a fan I have more respect for the triple threats and triple threats should be paid more. however I understand the need to look outside
I think outside choreographers do enhance the show in many ways. It’s clear some pros are just not comfortable choreographing certain styles, and do their own choreography for others. If anything it takes a lot of pressure off of the pros who spend up to 8 hours a day choreographing/teaching non-dancers. I do however think the rules need to be clarified when it comes down to potential Emmy consideration and the circumstances with credit/non credit.
@CC: I agree on the Emmy rules thing. They need to tighten rules up in a lot of catagotories like guest acting (Margo martingale won last year for like 5 minutes of screen time) and what is a variety series and what is a comedy (snl people and Amy schummer can submit in comedy individually but their shows are variety?)
I agree with most of this, except that I do think that pros who do their own choreography do deserve a bit more credit than those who don’t. Invariably, the pros who know how to choreograph to the show’s audience (and the judges) and to best present their celebs are going to be better partners, insofar as they are able to keep their celebs on the show longer.
So, I’d definitely put Derek, Julianne, Cheryl, Kym and Karina consistently in that category. Mark often gives great routines, though sometimes I think he doesn’t hit the right balance between showing off his creativity and presenting his partner well (the Chelsea Kane season comes to mind). But, I think their contestants have generally done very well, or at least better than one might expect, due in part to savvy choreo (though it’s clearly not the whole story). Up until this season, I would have put Sharna at the top, but lately she hasn’t impressed.
On the other hand, there are some pros who just don’t have that skill, and it does show in the performances — and it’s good they get outside help, but I don’t think they should get as much credit as pros who figure it out themselves.
@AR – Yeeeeahhh…might wanna take Cheryl off that list…
“Doing your own choreography doesn’t necessarily make you a good pro – but keeping your celeb’s best interests at heart does.” This to me is consideration #1, 2, and 3 to keep in mind when having this discussion. Obviously, if something super shady or unethical is going on, the fans should call that out. But all of the drama that’s been made about this feels a little (or maybe a lot) stupid to me.
It seems like in the examples you highlight above and many others that have happened on the show outside choreography works for the contestant (better showcase of their talents), the pro (allows him/her to focus on teaching), the viewers (better routine), the judges (better choreo to judge), and even the outside choreographer (they get work and money).
Turning that into some super scandal is just silly to me. In fact, there might be a pro or two this season who I wish used some outside choreographer’s help.
@Kelly. What a preposterous idea that 3x threats should be paid more. Ever heard the term “Jack of all trades, master of none” you might do all three but if you are not *that* great on all three then no you should not be paid more.
In the days of Sandor and Parissia was the period for me when Argentine Tango ruled the roost. Those two knew the mechanics of the Argentine Tango + Cheryl. Argentine Tango nowerdays are just a sequence of lunges and ganchos. Where is the greapvine, forward and backward ochos, where is the pencil, the leg adornments. Disappeared with S&P. For the past 4 series I have not liked 1 Argentine Tango (maybe Meryl’s and oddly Robert and Kym’s). The last Argentine Tango I stood up and shouted YAAS for was Jack and Cheryl’s. Oh that is right because it was choreographed by Cheryl an Argentine Tango dancer! I say BRING BACK Argentine Tango choreographers! Salsa is fine. I am not a fan of Contemporary AT ALL so my prejudices make me not fully enjoy the dance but Derek and Allison do magic with it and make it tolerable.
I think Jazz needs looking at BIG TIME as they seem to be *Green Lights* to do what ever and pseudo freestyle it and that is WRONG. Jazz needs demolishing into all the subjenres (Hip Hop, Charleston, Broadway, popping etc) Well it makes it look like SYTYCD and we all know how well and healthy that show is!
I do not care for outside choreography. I know for a fact over here Charleston, Salsa and Argentine Tango are done elswhere. Lets not start the argument of lifting routines from SCD and DWTS in other versions ( I am sure Courtney will do this later).
Why not just have (Choreographers) in the end credits under Mandy Moore (I would say even she is a great choreographer herself…but again different Topic!)
So that is what I have to say but will keep an eye out for other comments as more and more I am looking carefully and Choreography these days 😉
@Laura – Exactly. And honestly, of all the bitching & moaning I’ve heard about this, I think the bulk of the people complaining are just falling in with party lines in the great DWTS fan war. It’s all a bunch of “Well Sharna’s obviously mad at Witney, so as Sharna’s fan, I’m mad at her too!” Or “I didn’t like Witney to begin with, so this is just adding fuel to my fire – even though I don’t really know the whole story!” It’s just a bunch of fans overreacting for the sake of overreacting.
@Vin – As for the Academy rules – I don’t see those changing anytime soon, and nobody was complaining until Witney got nominated for Alan’s ghosted routines for Alfonso. That’s not an issue with Academy rules – that an issue with Alan suddenly wanting to change the rules of ghosting.
Oh typos *rage face* I was meant to say that Mandy Moore was NOT a good choreographer
Sometimes I think it’s just the show is far enough a long that the fans need something to talk about to keep themselves engaged.
I agree, best interest of their celeb is the biggest issue.
Also, I think those who are exceedingly creative and able to for the most part choreograph all their routines, they do sort of get rewarded, as in the celeb looks really good because it was specifically created for them. Or at least the pros who are able to modify on the fly something someone else helped them come up with when they first receive their dance and song assignment are able to make sure their celeb looks good…
I remember in one of Peta’s earlier seasons she got so frustrated with a partner because he wasn’t able to get a certain lift in the routine, she just didn’t at that time seem able to take it out or modify it…
Also back to rewards, in the long term certain pros seem to be having opportunities beyond dwts. Movies, music, broadway, tv…there are a lot of secondary and intangible rewards.
Very interesting about Cheryl — I can’t say I’m not disappointed, but she did look out for her partners in getting those routines together for them.
This does frequently just break down on party lines — where I come out is that, while I’m not going to criticize someone for using an outsider choreographer, I do give extra credit to those who do it themselves, especially since some, if not most, of the most memorable routines have come from those pros.
I do think the show should just be open about it. I think most people won’t really care that much — those who like a pro aren’t likely to jump ship based on outside help.
When I first started watching dwts I didn’t know until Derek appeared on Live with Regis that he did his own choreography so it made me love him even more (and it impressed the hell out of Regis). So then I assumed all the pros did their own choreography. Only when rumors came out that Cheryl used outside choreographers did it burst my bubble a bit. As a viewer I love creative, memorable dances so if a pro has to use an outside choreographer then okay. But tptb need to instruct the judges not to comment on choreography since they shouldn’t be judging it, only the execution of the dance by the celeb. Viewers like me can take into consideration the choreography if it helps them decide on who to vote for.
Allison is a good example of where outside choreo would be useful for help with her ballroom routines but then she is also a prime example of why some of the other pros need help choreographing things like a jazz or contemporary routine to even get them half as good as what Allisons would look like. Every pro has their niche, like Courtney said.
If outside choreo enhances the standard of the show then I see no problem with it – it just gives the pros more time to teach and support their celebs. And in all honesty if the pros had to choreo ALL their own routines then everyone would be complaining even more about how bad the choreo is like they are doing about Witneys more recent choreo.
I think we could use a few good “ghosts” this season, actually. 🙂
Number 3 is the one that bugs the shit out of me the most and it’s something that can be applied to nearly EVERYTHING – people are too fu@king black and white…all or nothing…they see no nuance at all. Witney uses a ghost? She gets credit for NOTHING <----this mentality is MORONIC people. Nothing is ever that simple. The Bhangra concept? Guess who came up with it. Me. Yep. I tweeted it out and I suspect Henry picked it up and shared it with Derek who was having an admittedly hard time coming up with something for a dance where they were allowed to use NOTHING from the show. (And I'm being serious - I had confirmation of some kind and I don't remember what it was now. Henry retweeted or something) Think Henry told Derek he got it from the internet? Doubtful. Hell, maybe Derek got it from me. I dunno. So, does that mean I get credit for the entire dance? Bah! Does the choreographer helping Derek get all the credit? Hardly, this is Derek we're talking about. And that's not all. Derek has often watched dances on the internet for ideas when he's struggling. He's picked up a move here and there and inserted it into his choreography. Does this mean he's a thief and not a genius after all? Only to complete idiots (like Benji Schwimmer). 🙂 There are few new "moves" and one move doesn't make a whole dance - it's how you string the moves together to a piece of music (among other things). Anyone who thinks they deserve credit for a single move is...well, see above. AND those same people probably owe Derek a bunch of credit, like the pros on this show do. For that matter, how many of you can recognize a Nappytabs routine straight away. Why do you think that is? I tend to think it's because they have a repertoire of moves that define them. They borrow their own moves over and over. As does Travis Wall. As does DEREK. Does this mean they suck?? Hardly.
Great post! I think I fall in the category of being very impressed when someone can do their own choreo….as long as its good. If it’s not and they need help from an outsider to spark some new creativity or if they just aren’t good at choreographing certain styles of dance, then, if you can afford it, please get some help! I want to see good routines!
The pros on the show should have the priority of showing their celebs in the best light possible. Derek, yes he does his own choreo which is great, but he also has his celebs best interest at heart which is even more important and is part of why he has been so successful.
After 22 seasons of this show, we viewers also want to see something fresh and interesting and good….and I think outsiders could also help with that. Especially in the non-ballroom genres if the particular pro is not very experienced with them. I would rather see more impressive routines even if several of them had help, over no one asking for help and the majority of the routines being dull or bad.
I find the criticism of the pros for using outsiders ridiculous. I am used to the way choreography works from also being a figure skating fan for so long. The majority of figure skaters do NOT do their own choreo. No one faults them for that! It’s normal in the skating world and is not viewed as a diss. Same for musicians. Some can play or sing, some can teach, some can write music/lyrics. Are most superb at all 3? Probably not. Do we fault some of the best vocalists in the world if they do not write their own songs? No…not normally. Are they less talented if they can’t write music or teach it? No, that’s not fair. I love when a singer is also a talented songwriter. But some just are not. And so many out there have a co-write on their music, just look at their track listings.
For Emmys vs Grammys though…I think the Grammys pretty much list every contributor for song writing in the nominations? The rules for Grammys vs Emmys might be different though. I don’t care what way they decide to go in the future for the Emmys. Either way, choreographers should just know and accept the rules laid out. For now, if you agree to ghost, then you are agreeing to not getting credit….even if the routine is Emmy nominated. Stop whining and keep working and if you are that talented, you will get credit somewhere someday!
Nathan UK, don’t be telling people their ideas are “preposterous”. That isn’t your role here and I resent your tone. Dial it back several notches. Now.
I also don’t think it’s a preposterous idea. The very implication of the words “triple threat” is that you ARE good at all three. If you are all three, then you should be paid more – but that is up to the pros agent. I suspect that the true triple threats (Derek, Mark to name two) actually ARE being paid more. This is how it works in the real world and I suspect also in show business.
HRH Princess Heidi. I agree 100%. You choreograph to your own style! If you do camp STICK TO CAMP. If you do dramatic. STICK TO DRAMA. If you do straight up competative dance steps STICK TO THAT. Being a pro means you brand your routines in terms of staging, music, steps. You can only get better if you stick to your own flow. There is no better rhythm than your OWN drum!
I seem to remember either Tony or Maks bragging back in the day that they never used outside choreographers like some other pros did. I remember thinking that explained their rather uninspired routines.
?
I truly believe good choreographers are born, not made. And of that group, only a very tiny percentage have the potential to be genius at it. So based on that, I really can’t begrudge any pro the need to use outside help if desired.
The pros on this show are under enormous pressure to make their celebs look good in a very short amount of time. Not to mention all the extra crap they throw at the pros such as odd dance styles, wacky themes and time spent away from practicing to film extra “stunt” pieces or extra travel time like the go to a city to be inspired thing from last season.
At the end of the day, I want to see exciting, memorable routines that make both the pro and the celeb shine. Even if it takes a village to do it.
I do think the show should compensate or at least chip in some to pay outside choreographers. It’s in their best interests to have exciting, inspired routines from the pros, so they should pony up. Also, the show has seemed lately to really want over the top production wise, showy dances. Which puts more pressure on the pros to come up with “gimmicks” during a routine.
Thanks PH for mentioning Derek and the Bhangra. Meant to include it in my post but forgot (typing on my phone during my lunch hour). Lol. I wondered how many people would think he did none of the choreography for that dance because they actually mentioned, and showed, the outside choreographer.
jjl2285, you do make a very good point – and one that could be a subject for a post all its own. The Judges commenting on Choreography – this is a very sticky wicket, because they often claim that they DON’T judge the pro. They say that when it’s convenient, of course – and when it’s not they do. Another of the great double standards of DWTS. They constantly comment on the “simplicity” or the “complexity” of the routine when they really should be limiting the comments to the execution of the routine, particularly in the first couple weeks. I just watched week 3 and saw both comments used. Er, who’s doing a better job – a pro who choreographs a simple routine that is performed VERY well by her celeb, or a pro who choreographs a very difficult routine that her celeb can’t do?? I would say Pro number 1, but the judges can skew the attitude of the viewers by remarking that a routine was “simple” while urging the audience to forgive a mistake from a couple by commenting that the routine was very difficult.
HRH PH. Just seen your reply. I am sorry if my tone came across as pointed. You are probably right about pay. I will try not to be as obnoxious in the future
I’m not demanding you agree with me, Nathan, I’m just asking you to not come across as so mean to someone who clearly didn’t deserve it.
Jl2285&HRHPH. I know this might be off topic but surely this revvs up the argument for a performance + technical scoring like Danse avec les Stars. But this causes time constraints and the show is stretched for time anyway (hello 60 second routines) maybe start it at Week 4. I don’t know. DWTS these days as Courtney said is complex anyway. Besides the split scores will be over analysed and will cause more arguments than the upteen we already have go on!
Thanks for a very informative piece. I never really understood what the whole Emmygate thing was about (other than a moan and groan session).
I agree that there is no shame in getting help for yourself or your partner. I don’t think they deserve anything more then an informal thank you. In the case of an award something could be said such as “Thank you for this award and thank you to ________for assisting with choreography. Just like actors will thank cast mates writers and directors for their help. However it’s a simple courtesy not a requirement. Just like when Kim and Sasha thanked the crew and art department for recreating the Facts of Life set. They expressed their appreciation for what the crew did to help.
I personally have no problem with the use of an outside choreographer. I’m interested in seeing well-executed, creative performances. I will admit to kind of liking to know who makes a habit of using “ghosts” and who does their own, mainly because I find it fascinating how the minds of the truly creative functions. Derek, for example: not only does he “do” (dance), he is an awesome teacher and choreographer. Plus he is gifted musically, draws and has a great eye for photography! It is interesting to me how some people are “triple” threats (or more) while most of us are probably lucky to be able to handle only one or two things at a time.
I do think there is also some hypocrisy on the part of certain pros and their fans. They LOVE to throw shade at other pros for getting outside help (even though it is perfectly legit), yet don’t seem to want to own up to their own use of it. Which makes me wonder, if they were Emmy noiminated, would they be giving “credit” to their ghosts? I swear part of the problem is that people just have to have something to “b$&@ch” about something! So, they make mountains out of molehills!
And I do agree, although it would probably cause some issues, that the judges should probably refrain from yapping about the simplicity and or complexity of the choreography. I would rather see Karina have Doug do a “simple” routine that suits his abilities, than someone struggling to do something above their skill level.
Does this mean that there isn´t even one pro this season that does all her/his choreography themselves or did I understand wrong since Allison and Derek aren’t there?
And, are the judges aware of how the pros choreography works or not?, because they seem to sometimes compliment or complain about the choreography?
I am so happy to see this post!! This capture so much of my feelings towards outside choreographers. Of course its fantastic if a pro can be a triple threat, but I feel like there is no shame in being self-aware of when it would best serve your partner to use outside help. I rather see amazing routines that highlight celebrities strengths. I must say I get a pretty bad vibe from that Alan Salazar guy. It could be totally unfounded but the way he’s handled himself online has come across really childish to me at times.
I was also thinking the two big themes last season Movie Night and Showstoppers basically required the whole cast to use someone else’s concept and at least a few elements of their choreography. They were all praised for recreating a dance that someone else originated and no one got their panties in a knot over it.In fact everyone was thrilled including the likes of Patricia Kelly and Bob Fosse among others.
I think that in terms of the pros choreographing what works for their partners, I agree that doing simple and great is better than complex and sloppy. However, I feel that some pros get too comfortable with that. Rumer Willis comes to mind. Here is a celeb who has tons going for her and yet she seemed so one-note to me. All of her dances were dark and so similar to me. I don’t think that Val utilized her talent enough. It was basically that weeks given dance style set to the the same tone week after week. Even their freestyle was the same. To me, that’s lazy.
I think that Derek always knows what looks good on his partners but it’s also something different and exciting every week.
I think Mark does all of his own, NA. And apparently Lindsay.
Great post, Court.
In my opinion a true pro is one who knows their strengths/weaknesses, and they certainly should work on getting better at the things they’re not as solid on (whether it be teaching, choreography, or unfamiliar dance styles). Of those three skills, choreography is the one they can get an assist on during the season. So I think it’s absolutely acceptable to get help. For me, a pro’s primary responsibility during the season is to give their celeb the best experience they can (that includes choreography that works for them and allows them to do their best).
PH, really hit the nail on the head for me in #17 with “people are too fu@king black and white…all or nothing…they see no nuance at all.” When did we, as a society, lose all sense of perspective??
As for the judges commenting on choreography, that’s a huge sore spot for me. They need to remember it’s about the celeb, not the pro; and the whole “but they’re a team” argument is nonsense (in my opinion). The celeb dances what the pro teaches them to dance.
I think the judge has several options when talking about choreography:
1. If the judge liked the choreography, after praising the celeb for their execution, they can say “Pro X, nice piece of choreography” and leave it at that.
2. If they *didn’t like* the choreography, they need to focus on how well the celeb danced it. “Celeb X, nice rise and fall. I saw a couple of heel leads. Lovely connection with the music.” If they feel strongly that the choreography was that bad, talk to the pro after the show.
3. If they feel there was a noticeable lack of content, they should give the celeb credit for what they did and then *suggest* to the pro that they might want to add more content next week. That way they can can still differentiate between a celeb who performed simple choreography well and one who might not have looked as strong but was given more difficult content without criticizing the celeb for something over which they had no control.
These are things Len used to do. Now all he does is throw out trite phrases we’ve heard for years, make dismissive comments like “it wasn’t my cup of tea” and get angry at the audience when they boo. It’s all become reality schtick, and I find it disgusting and disrespectful to the celebs and the pros. [rant over]
I agree Shim – which is why I added the caveat of “the first couple weeks”.
I don’t really have a problem with outside choreography except when it comes to awards. It’s not like the Academy goes LOOKING for nominees, so hopefuls have to submit something to them if they want to potentially get on the ballot. That’s why the idea of a pro submitting a dance for nomination with their own name on it doesn’t sit well with me in cases where the bulk of a routine was done by a ghost. I don’t expect the ghost to be credited, I just don’t like the idea of a pro sending in something that they at least mostly create him/herself.
That they DIDN’T at least mostly create him/herself, sorry for the typo!
How do you even know that happens, Julia?? You’re making a possibly incorrect assumption. I don’t think it DOES happen – I think the risk of fraud with the Academy is too high, and I don’t think DWTS would involve themselves if they knew a ghost did the bulk of the routine. Seems to me that you’ve gone from a ghost “helping” with a routine to assuming they do the bulk of the work – that’s very likely not true.
I look at this whole issue at pros using outside choreographers by trying to forget about it. It’s like when celebrities host the Golden Globes, the Emmys or the Oscars – it’s not Ellen writing all the jokes, it’s not all Tina and Amy. They have teams preparing it, because it’s just two much for one comedian alone. But i don’t like to think about that. I watch Tina and Amy’s monologues and I watch it as though they’re the only ones who prepared the jokes. And that’s how I look at Dancing with the Stars. With that being said, the Emmys do (or used to, I think the award of outstanding writing in a variety special has become obsolete) nominate the whole writing team. In regards to how many jokes each nominated individual has contributed to the entire show I don’t know. In the ideal world, if an outside choreographer did a significant portion of the choreography (lets say half an half) they should be nominated – but who knows if that’s every happened with previously nominated dances. In the end, i don’t mind if a pro uses outside choreographers; I would prefer if they didn’t, but because many of them do, I can live with it.
Also does anyone remember for what dance Cheryl and Nick Kosovich were nominated for, the same year Cheryl was nominated individually for her freestyle with Drew? Was Nick a pro at the time or in any way contractually affiliated with DWTS?
I actually think it is fair for the judges’ to factor in the choreography into their comments and scores. Since celebs can benefits from a pro’s choreography that makes them look good; likewise, it goes hand in hand that they will be affected by poor choreography. I also think it holds the pros accountable…they can’t just do whatever they want and expect their celebs to get high scores if they aren’t doing appropriate dances.
I’ve never agreed with the show being “about the celeb, not the pro.” The pros invest so much into the show and fans have become so invested in some of the longtime pros that I think DWTS is as much (for me, the “Stars” in DWTS are the pros) about the pros and the partnerships they form with their celebs each season.
Great post. Thank you.
I have absolutely no problem with the use of outside choreographers as I feel it improves the quality of the dance but to be honest there was a bit of a learning curve for me.
I don’t remember how I learned about Emmygate but whatever way I processed the information coupled with not knowing too much about choreography and having the impression that it was just a given that every pro did their own led me to believe that Witney had pulled off something shady. I later learned that everyone from Mark Ballas to Sharna to Lindsay has had some help.
At the time though it really damaged what I thought about Witney’s success. I thought she was pretty inoffensive in her season with Cody although it’s really obvious what she got help with that season. And the dances she had help with I loved.
Now I wish she would get some more help because in the last couple of seasons she has held her celeb back.
I would never want the show to hire outside choreographers for all the dances though. That would take something away from the show I think.
I did see an interview with Val and Ginger where he took total credit for that contemporary routine but I thought he hadn’t choreographed any of it.
Lindsay not using help this season is probably more down to the fact that Wanya and her have to travel a lot. Based on what I’ve seen so far this season. She should stick to doing everything herself because it’s pretty damn impressive.
Wow, great post! I read a bit about Emmygate, but wasn’t entirely sure what really happened…now I def. do.
Personal opinion:
I have no problem with pros using ghosts and keeping it under the radar. It’s normal and pros aren’t robots they are human after all. Being burnt out, going through something personal, or simply needing help during a season should be normal, in my opinion. Even though I do appreciate and value a pro’s own choreo because I was under the impression that that’s how it’s been, until Emmygate.
However, when it comes to something more serious and potentially career changing like awards nominations, Emmys etc. then I do have a bit of a problem. The ghost who was PAID should be given recognition. If someone’s being paid under the rug or hush hush for choreo, whether it be one lift that may make the whole routine, or 50% of the steps, or simply the concept…they still should be recognized or nominated as well. But, if Sharna let’s say, suggests choreo to Peta, and that routine is nominated, then No..Sharna should not be nominated because she wasn’t paid. There is a reason a person is paid. They won’t be paid for one kick…if that kick isn’t worth it for a routine. The pro’s aren’t dumb to me, in my opinion.
If a routine is nominated and someone (a ghost or ghoul 😛 ) was paid for that routine by a pro, then they should be nominated as well. There was a REASON that person was PAID. Now, how should they be? That’s complicated…but I think nominees should have to sign a document swearing to no use of a ghost. But if someone helped with choreo…like another pro or friend… And WASN’T paid…then it should be fair game. At least in my opinion.
On the other hand, while I don’t have a problem with ghosts, I still prefer a pro’a own choreo. Over the years I have seen classic Derek Hough steps, Mark Ballas steps, and even Cheryl Burke steps (maybe she used the same ghost idk mind blown) and Kym choreo that I have recognized as unique and steps they only have done… So I do think it makes it worth while knowing it’s coming from the pro as well.
On the subject of being a triple threat. I rather have and prefer pros who choreograph their own routines and have 3 dance experts be Resident Teachers for the pros to all use at their dispense. EX. Have Shirley Ballas as a resident expert who helps the pros TEACH. Just an idea.
Informational Post! Love it
Just excellent, Court!!! Lovesss!!
My thoughts: all I know is the best dances and best seasons I have loved from DWTS, SCD, and DWTSRussia were the ones with well choreographed routines that included outside help that some dancers had. In fact, the season I watched DWTSRussia was full of outside help in every area and that show and every routine left my jaw on the floor. I’ll never forget it, I only wanted more and I’m all for it. However, when this happens (adding: in a majorly way for the full routine), I agree that the outside choreographers who helped should get credit for it. Though for those who can do it all themselves (like Derek), they get my full respect even more and for good reason. Not many can do that.
I don’t know if it has actually happened or not. It just seems like it’s a thing that COULD easily happen. I could be missing something though.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that only ONE of the recent pros nominated for choreography on DWTS is known to have some help with choreography and that all other nominees do their own work? I don’t. So why worry about it?
I don’t think the Emmys are that much a concern – Derek and Mark are the only ones getting regular nominations of the current pros and they do the vast majority of their own work. And Derek has already shown that if he had help or an outside choreographer, they get nominated (and win) with him. See his and Julianne’s Sia number. I think that Witney was an aberration and I also think that, while she was quick to give credit where due, Alan’s role was likely VERY overstated.
Consider this: Nappytabs have one or more assistants working with them, as do most choreographers – should all of them get credit if the theme, the majority of the steps and the staging are all Nappytabs? There are assistant choreographers on most Broadway shows – yet they don’t get Tonys. Why should they? They aren’t IN RESPONSIBLE CHARGE for the work. And that’s it in a nutshell right there. Who is the person in charge? Who is the person with the final say on what shows up (and what doesn’t) on the dance floor?? That person will get all the flack if a routine is shit, they should get all the credit if it turns out great. If Alan, for example, won’t raise his hand and stand with Witney when the routine is crap, he sure as hell better sit down and shut up when the routine is amazing.
I’ll stick to Triple Threat. It was the whole concept of the show and it should be like it. It’s a reality show and it’s part of their challenges as pros. If they cant handle it because they have other stuff like Val got tour after or Witney busy putting up a business then dont take the job or accept the consequence of being bash online. You should be accountable on all 3 challenges to be a winner. If others can do it then so should be the rest. No excuses. It’s about knowing your priorities. I honestly watch the show because of Sharna and I hate it everytime when she choreos with Paul a routine for the celeb but nevertheless if they allow it
I think it’s a much more nuanced issue than that, Cali. I think it’s fair to mark a routine down if it’s a paso that has little paso content in it. Absolutely fair. Likewise, if a routine is obviously amazing and difficult and tremendously well executed, it should be rewarded. I would even say that if a choreographer (like Val) is routinely giving an obviously talented celebrity easy or boring routines (works for both Ginger and to a lesser extent, Rumer) and not upping their game, they should be called on it.
Where the judges get into trouble, however, is when they USE the choreography to further their own agenda within the show. Instead of focusing on the how well Doug executed a dance, they compliment him on the execution yet kind of shrug it off by saying it was a “simple” routine – in weeks 2 and 3!! They put that bug in the audience’s ear. Then they turn around to a celeb they WANT to stick around longer but who didn’t execute their dance AS well and say “that was a really difficult routine.” I think that is more audience manipulation than it is constructive criticism. It’s NOT constructive to tell Doug his routine is “simple” or to tell celebrity X that their routine was difficult. It IS constructive to tell Mark that there wasn’t enough Paso content or to tell Val that (for example) an Argentine Tango as a freestyle while Rumer is wearing black for the 8th time that season is kinda dull and boring. Or that Ginger clearly has talent that is not being utilized. Perhaps that is coming in the next few weeks, when they’re expected to up their game.
It’s obvious to me, and it should be obvious to the judges, that Doug is not a dancer – yet he executed his last two dances quite well because Karina gave him appropriate choreography and taught him to dance it. THAT is what you’re supposed to do – work with the skills your celebrity has and turn out a good dance. So, why tell him it was “simple” especially this early in the season when it SHOULD be simple?? Unless you want the audience to know that, despite what they saw, he ain’t all that?? Manipulation. It’s the exact opposite of raving over Ginger who has been given somewhat crappy choreo in spite of the fact that she can dance.
Er, Jennifer, I would NOT put Mark in the same category as Sharna and Lindsay in regard to “help”. Hell, I don’t even think we can put Lindsay in the same category with Sharna these days. There are degrees of “help”.
Few thoughts on the topic:
I’m fine with outside help, but really the hope is that it results in great routines – unlike Val & Ginger’s contemporary, which apparently Alan and Jenna choreographed. What a bore. If that’s the kind of stuff they’re going to churn out, then I certainly don’t think they are all that and a bag of chips.
I saw Alan on Instagram say something about Lindsay and Wanya’s first dance, and I wondered if it was a sly insinuation that he had a helping hand.
I had heard rumors that Cheryl almost always utilized outside choreographers, but it didn’t really change my opinion of her teaching skills. I never saw her as a choreographic innovator anyway. I also wonder if she did her own AT routines after her stint in South America because frankly I thought the quality of her ATs went DOWN after that (the one with Gilles is still my favorite).
Sharna insinuating that she helped enough with Witney’s Emmy-nominated routines to get some credit was really a low point for Sharna. Just tasteless. I’m sure she may have offered some ideas or even a specific move or something – but really, many artists offer help or collaboration or something anyway. If she had been nominated, would her old boyfriend’s name have been on the routines? Exactly. Just poor taste by Sharna.
I’m s relatively recent fan of DWTS. I only started watching because of Charlie and Meryl because I absolutely adored them during the Olympics at Sochi. In that regard, and I ask as the relative rookie that I am, were there any ghost choreographers in Maks and Meryl’s performances? I’ve heard rumors that Meryl is partly responsible for some of their choreographies. I think there might be some truth in there as I haven’t seen Maks come up with a single routine as moving as those ever since. If Meryl was indeed involved, I would have loved to see her recognized for it.
I agree with you, Figamentation, on always viewing Cheryl’s teaching skills over her choreography on the show. Mark and Derek’s numbers were the ones that produces great choreo with creative, intricate, steps and Cheryl would deliver with her skills as a teacher. It was always a balance for me and I’m ok with that.
Now that you mentioned the help from Alan…I always felt there be a common thread amongst Witney’s cha chas and Lindsey’s cha chas. Like with Alfonso and Wanye. I always wondered if they were just similar choreographers or like-minded.
Sharna and Nick’s week 1 cha cha, Witney and Alfonso’s cha cha, and Lindsey and Wanye’s cha cha share a common thread for me…so I wonder if they all got help from the same person…or just seemed similar in fashion.
Overall, I prefer TRIPLE THREATS…but not entireley against ghosts. I just want better choreo, creative, intricate, innovation steps this season. They really need to step UP their game as pros (cough…Val…cough…Witney Sharna) , at least to me.
And on a sidenote: now that I think about ghosts and triple threats…I REALLY hope Karina gets nominated or wins an Emmy some time soon. She is def. a triple threat to me and is so underrated on the show sometimes.
Go Karina!
I do respect Derek more as a pro because he does his own choreography, and same for Mark and Karina, but at the same time I’m not sure I could watch a season of choreography like that of Tony or Maks so I can understand the case for outside help. Although Nyles ability is impressive, I felt as if I’ve pretty much watched him dance the same dance 3x now.I happen to like what Witney is putting out this season though. I think the main issue with Val and Ginger is that they are a bad match and the show’s strategy there may backfire.
I think it’s easier for this show to have choreo help than teaching help. It’s in the teaching that we see a relationship develop. It’s the teaching that takes most of the time. And no matter how good the choreo (by the pro alone, with ghost help or completely outsourced), if the pro can’t teach the celeb to do it they are going to have a rotten performance. So to me being an excellent dancer and a pretty good to great teacher are the most important for the show. But I still think being able to choreo or at least modify on the fly is pretty important especially as they get deeper in to the season and have less and less time to teach a routine. If they can’t get the move pretty easily, move on.
Did someone ask about “Dancing by the Numbers?” Sorry it’s so late. Blame New Orleans. 🙂
EmnEm, I don’t think you can discount the fact that Lindsay and Witney trained together as youngsters and have been friends forever. That’s bound to result in some similarities.
I don’t agree with Sharna shading Witney when she got that (IMO undeserved) Emmy nomination but I do understand why she did. She may have been feeling angry/emotional/jealous/whatever that Witney got nominated while she had just come off that season with Noah which she probably hoped she’d get a nomination herself for and did it in the heat of the moment.
I’m still seeing a lot of people pulling the “well I respect the triple threats more!” argument, and I feel like you guys are kinda missing the point. I’m not saying “don’t respect the triple threats more” – I’m saying “maybe acknowledge that the triple threats are the MINORITY and not the majority, and that a pro can still be wholly effective and a great pro without doing all of their own choreography”. Do I respect a true master of their craft more than someone that’s just pretty good at it? Sure. That’s like me respecting Michael Jackson more than Usher – the former was a legend, the latter is great but still honing his craft. But I do think Usher is still a fantastic singer & performer, and it doesn’t diminish my appreciation of his music when I look at him and then look at MJ. Apples & oranges. I think we should treat the self-choreographers and the non-self-choreographers the same: they’re just different beasts. Cheryl may not have done much of her own choreography (and to answer someone’s question upstream – yes, to my knowledge she used the same outside choreographer time after time, which is probably why her choreography always seemed consistent), but I would argue that Cheryl was just such a fantastic TEACHER that it was kind of a moot point that she didn’t do her own choreography. And again, I feel like I need to remind everyone: just because they don’t do the bulk of their own choreography, does NOT mean that they don’t choreograph AT ALL. As I mentioned above – the onus is still on the pro to actually tweak the choreography, if need be, after the ghost has left and they’re actually rehearsing with their celeb. I, like Heidi, am just FLOORED at how black-and-white everyone seems to see things these days…
Elle, I’m not sure you even took the time to read the whole post, because you don’t seem to understand that YOU CANNOT EXPECT ALL THE PROS TO DANCE, TEACH, AND CHOREOGRAPH WITH THE SAME DEGREE OF PROFICIENCY. There literally is not enough time. God help us if you were ever the casting director, because you might end up finding a grand total of 3 pros able to fit those specifications, and I’d bet at least 1 would have a nervous breakdown from the pressure by the middle of the season. And while you may think that the pros being a triple threat “is what the whole show is based on”, the reality is that ghosting/outside choreography has been going on the entire time the show has been on, and has not been something that has been discussed openly until about the last year or so. You’re expecting the pros to be 100% ON, 100% of the time – that’s unrealistic.
Lady Ebet – Meryl had input on she & Maks’ choreography. In fact, I think there was actually one week where they showed in their rehearsal package where Maks was practically BEGGING Meryl for input, and she was kinda like “no, this one’s on you, dude!”.
If a pro feels to showcase his partner in the best possible way and doesn’t know enough about some fusion dance, or a type of dance, there’s nothing wrong with them getting outside help. The “ghosts” come in to teach knowing that they won’t get any recognition. They’re paid for their time, out of the pros own pocket, so the show doesn’t owe any of them anything.
I remember Derek spending a lot of time on the internet looking for help when he needed it. There’s nothing wrong with a pro admitting they don’t know enough and need the help. All the complaining about them using outside help should stop. There a few pros on the show right now that could greatly benefit if they did get outside help.
I agree, Mark and Derek are probably the only triple threats and they should get paid more. Witney or Lindsay shouldn’t be paid the same, they’re not as skilled. Same thing happens in the real world. You’re paid according to your ability, so why should it be any different for this.
@EmnEm – Regarding your arguments about “ghosts” getting credit – by definition, a ghost DOES NOT GET CREDIT. That’s why they’re called a ghost, and they know up front that they cannot expect to get any credit – if they have a problem with that, then I would suggest that they maybe don’t take any ghosting gigs. And here’s the catch: it’s a helluva lot easier to get a ghosting gig on this show than a legally contracted one – the former is just a monetary transaction between a pro and a ghost; the latter is a much more long, drawn-out, expensive endeavor. And when you’re doing the latter, you also have to get the higher-ups at DWTS involved, and that doesn’t happen often. It’s not profitable for them, and it draws attention away from the pros that have become celebrities in their own right on this show. And the Academy agrees on this – they don’t care about some clandestine agreement between a pro and an outside choreographer, they will only give credit to the name that is contractually on the piece. This is how it has always been; I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
I feel like you’re kind of expecting the best of both worlds – you support ghosting, but you also want them to get recognized. The two are kinda mutually exclusive. And like Heidi, I have to wonder how many kinda sh*tty routines Alan ghosted on that he chooses not to take credit for – but the one time something he helped with got nominated, suddenly he wants credit. This arrangement only ever became a problem last year, when a ghosted routine actually got Emmy props. Again, I reiterate: when you ghost, you have no expectation to receive any credit, and if that’s a problem, then you probably shouldn’t be ghosting…but be aware that means some potentially lucrative jobs that could keep you flush are now off the table. You don’t get to collect the ghosting fee, get credit, and always be employed – there are catches. It’s a warm fuzzy thought that you can have all three – but it’s not very realistic.
@Cindy – Yes, the real world is a meritocracy, and DWTS probably should be as well – but I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing: I don’t feel like Mark & Derek should be paid more simply because they’re “triple threats”; TPTB are probably far more likely to think along the lines of “What does this pro bring to the table, and how does that benefit us?” I feel like they’re far more likely to monetarily reward a pro that has consistently been popular with fans, and effectively partners their celebs – might being a triple threat contribute to that? Sure, but I think they’re more likely to reward the results of that, rather than that aspect itself. If they were in the business of reward the triple threats with bigger salaries, then Allison would be one of the highest paid pros on the show – and I don’t think what we’ve seen from her so far warrants the big bucks…yet. Bottom line? TPTB are interested in monetarily rewarding the pros that consistently make them money – independent of whether or not they can choreograph their own stuff.
She’s supposed to be a professional, M8. I mean, really. She’s also a co-worker and supposed friend to Witney. With friends like that, who needs enemies. I’m no Witney fan, but my sympathy is with her.
Awesome piece Courtney- greatly appreciated 🙂 I pretty much agree with everything you had to say.
At this stage in the show’s run I honestly don’t care if the pros single handedly choreograph their pieces. They are (usually) creating concepts, teaching a celeb, dealing with any breakdowns/insecurities/injuries the celeb has, traveling, coming up with camera angles/costumes/staging, and balancing whatever crappy theme or challenge the show throws at them. At the end of the day I am always most impressed with the pros that make sure their partner has the best material on show day and is fully prepared to perform it.
As a side note, I don’t always watch Afterbuzz, but I did watch the one with Spencer and I liked his movie analogy. He mentioned that dozens of people can be involved in editing/producing a movie, but on Oscar day only the top few get the trophy. That’s life. If we gave a prize for every little bit of assistance it would get ridiculous IMO.
Amen, Chayse! “If we gave a prize for every little bit of assistance it would get ridiculous IMO. Unfortunately, we’re living in a time when a lot of folks subscribe to the theory that everyone deserves a trophy.
Court (#59), thank you for reiterating the point that triple threats are the minority. We absolutely should value them and enjoy what they bring to the table. However, for me, a pro who’s a great dancer, a flexible teacher, and has the ability to connect with their celeb is a huge asset to the show. If they need an assist on the choreography to make their celeb shine their brightest, they should go for it and not be thought lacking for having the self-awareness and self-confidence to admit they need some help to create the best end product.
Great post Courtney!! I’ll admit that I had been feeling a bit uneasy about the whole outside choreographers thing (and yes, as a Derek fan I’ve been guilty of thinking point #1), but your post, and especially the stuff in the comments about Cheryl, really helped clear things up for me. I don’t think anyone could really argue that Cheryl isn’t one of the top pros ever on the show (whether or not you like her), and the fact that she used outside choreographers doesn’t diminish that. She did what was necessary to showcase her partner in the best way possible, and I think her record speaks for itself.
Courtney & Heidi,
Thanks for this post, I think it was well needed. I’m wondering if you guys have considered ever creating a post about the secrets/suspicions of seasons past. After reading through the comments tonight, I noticed Shawn & Derek, Chelsea & Mark, Cheryl & Jack, and Meryl & Maks (always thought she had some say in those routines, no way he did those alone) mentioned.
I think it would be an extremely insightful and fun post to relive some of the past seasons and pairing with any new information that you guys knew but didn’t share at the time or information that made it’s way out past the seasons. Not meant to be a dirty laundry type thing, but just a “things that make you go hmmm?” post. IDK, maybe it’s a stupid suggestion, but just a thought! 🙂
Interesting post and I just thought that I would add in my two cents. From my perspective I come from the view that there is nothing wrong with a pro getting help from someone whoever it is for a small portion of a routine and that routine still being classified as the pros work. Choreography, production and everything is a collaborative process and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think the problem comes when the show, as some people have pointed out, complements pros for choreography and such and people didn’t know whether that complement is valid or not. Like sense this whole emmygate issue come out it has kinda of made the audience really unsure about whether it was that pros work or not. Also it makes you wonder how much Wintey needed that outside help to make the routines with Alfonso look really good when lately her choreo has kinda of stunk. It’s just the uncertainty that I think fans don’t like.
Now I am just adding to the post not really expecting anyone to reply, agree/disagree, or take the time to read this but I figured I would jump on the band wagon since this is one of my favorite things to read PERIOD. I read the Power Rankings RELIGIOUSLY and I take the critiques that Courtney writes on the couples and apply it to my own dancing, I’m a 21 year old male dancer obtaining my B.S. in Dance- Ballroom Emphasis at Utah Valley University, not that it matters but I’m not really a regular so I don’t think anyone is going to have any clue what I am doing here so figured I would introduce myself.
First, let me point out my background and knowledge in the ballroom world is rather limited but I use my business background and my mothers training in communication studies to make my points which tend to be spot on. Forgive me Courtney but you are sort of what I come to when I want to understand something in regards to the Ballroom World. You have incredible advice and wonderful insight for a novice like me.
Now onto the point (sorry for my tangent), the use of outside choreographers I feel are fine as long as they are utilized in certain ways. The difference of opinion that I see when there is a comparison between Derek, Allison, and Witney is based on the fact that Derek has a Ballroom background. He has extensive ballroom training and has established himself in the Ballroom community, when he started dancing with Jennie Garth he did what he was told and followed his syllabus he did it the same way until about season 7 when he danced with Brooke where he began to slightly push the edge of the Ballroom (his Jive with Brooke may have been disastrous but it was innovative) and as time went on he got more confident in himself (Lil Kim’s Jive, Joanna’s Futuristic Paso Doble, Nicole Scherzinger’s…well….EVERYTHING…. and so on) Derek has reshaped and modernized Ballroom dancing and will most likely be going down in the history books as one of the greats (Fosse, Graham, Nureyev, etc.). Derek has earned his right to bring a new twist on Ballroom because he paid his dues with his training he can back up his training and he brings an innovative twist that still follows traditional patterns (most of the time) yet is still creative. Derek doesn’t utilize outside choreographers regularly and when he does he is honest about it. Which is why I have no problem with it.
Now if we put Allison who does her own choreography as well its like comparing apples to oranges. Allison is a contemporary dancer, yes she has trained her life in her style and is an amazing dancer but she hasn’t established herself as a BALLROOM dancer, and as a result hasn’t earned the right to redefine these dances. The judges get on her case for ‘too much messing around’ and being to overly complex yet it seems to me it hasn’t sunk in to her brain and, forgive me, it just seems like she is being stubborn and with this mindset, “I was sought out to bring something new, i can do whatever I want and so what if I don’t do traditional steps, it doesn’t matter”. For example, The Paso Doble that everyone gushes about, the Pirates of the Caribbean with Riker, was it a great theatrical piece yes, was it a TRUE PASO DOBLE???? By no chance it was. The music was completely wrong, it was a 3/4 and Paso is a 2/4. So that was my strike and trust me they could have adjusted it (I have a remix of the same song done to a Paso it’s also on youtube). Second Allison is a great theatrical dancer but if she was employed on Strictly Come Dancing, Craig Revel Horwood would EAT HER ALIVE!!! She would be getting 2s and 3s for her less than stellar routines with now basic foundation. The only reason she did so well with Riker is because Riker is from Utah and a cousin of the Houghs, Utah is the Ballroom capital of the U.S. EVERYONE has a little experience in Ballroom. She is the one who could MAJORLY benefit from an outside choreographer I don’t know if she is just stubborn or doesn’t really want to learn the proper technique and as Courtney once said, she has the potential if she just would do a master class with Heather Smith, Wendy Johnson, or Shirley Ballas.
As for Witney getting her rear handed to her with having Alan Salazar and Sharna Burgess ghost some of her routines with Alfonso is kind of pointless. It could just be a reason to add a little bit of drama but it also explains why her choreography with Carlos, forgive me for saying, kinda sucked and why she looked really tuned out the entire season. Now in my time in Utah I was told by a many people that Witney was more of a Contemporary/Jazz dancer rather than Ballroom but had a bit of Ballroom training so that she could get on SYTYCD as a Ballroom dancer and have more opportunities. Her lifts in her audition just screams Contemporary dancer doing Ballroom and she was not the first person who has done that Tanisha Belnap was also a Contemporary dancer who auditioned as a Ballroom dancer. (You learn a lot by being quite and listening teachers like to talk). I’m sure there is more but those are what I heard. So when she got nominated for her Emmy for that Jive I kind of figured she had a little help and when it was true and Alan Salazar went Ape-shit and Witney kind of got fenced it seemed she tried to do all the choreography herself to prove she could do it and sadly its not really working. Now with Sharna, Val, and a few other pros coming out of the wood-work to through shade at Witney for not really deserving her Emmy is kind of low as I am sure there has been a time they needed an outside choreographer because I am sure they weren’t born with the ability to choreograph. However, having said that I do think it to be a bit unfair that Witney won an emmy that she didn’t have 100% interest in nor did she praise her ghost while Derek who has won emmys and done all of the choreography himself or with other pros who won with him has always made a point to recognize everyone he works with either on the show or privately. Just my thoughts. So while I have no sympathy for Witney I do think that the pros are just kicking a dead horse and trying to stir up drama for the sake of the spotlight.
Now as for Lindsay, I just think that Lindsay was probably one of the first to come out and really say, “I USED AN OUTSIDE CHOREOGRAPHER FOR MY AND ALEKS FREESTYLE” and while i praise her being open about it, I just think the smart move should have been to not say anything and let other people draw their own conclusions unless she was expecting a little drama and used it to amp her up a bit in the viewers eyes so she would be remembered and cause a little controversy since TPTB love all that. (i still have no idea what TPTB means but I see it used in sentences meant to describe the producers and big bosses so I just translated it as “The Producers The Bosses”). She did receive a little back lash for her use of the outside choreographer which I didn’t agree with I knew there were outside choreographers since Season 8 (Gilles and Cheryl’s Argentine Tango was NOT Cheryl’s choreography and I think that has already been established). However, I think that Lindsay also has a good eye for choreography but sometimes that can be a bit of a double edged sword if she uses all of her good routines too early that could leave her with some less than stellar ones later on in the competition (Chelsie Hightower comes to mind on that one).
Now I am not one for stirring up trouble or making assumptions with no basis I truly enjoy intelligent conversation with backed up evidence.
I don’t think that using an outside choreographer is necessarily a bad thing it gives pros a chance to get a different perspective on their dance, if they are suffering from a block it keeps their celebrity calm, and if they want to focus more on teaching technique then spending their time making a routine its perfect. If a choreographer is coming on to ‘ghost’ a routine and there is an agreement then there should be nothing wrong.
Sorry if I went on a tangent thanks for reading my comment and Courtney, Heidi, and anyone of the administrators I meant no disrespect or rudeness. Thanks.
Shawn and Derek, Chelsea and Mark?? What about them? Your post is unclear, Carri, and I also don’t remember anyone actually mentioning them. Also didn’t read Cheryl and Jack specifically either.
Oops, sorry for not being clear! I was just referring to your Bhangra concept (Shawn/Derek’s, one of my favorites) being plucked from the internet, I had never heard about that until now!! Forgive me, I started watching the show during Amber’s season and I’m trying to catch up with some older information. The other pairings/season’s were mentioned very very briefly in other poster’s posts in regards to choreography by those Pros being on point or less than wonderful (suggesting that a ghost could have been utilized to help out their choreography or present their partners better.) Anywhoo I just think this conversation is really cool and insightful. I really enjoy hearing some of the interworkings of the show that the non-dancers like me don’t actually realize are going on.
No need to post this post Heidi, hope that makes more sense, if it still doesn’t so sorry to bother! 🙂
I’m following you now, Carri. 🙂
In my opinion it’s not really that relevant who helps as long as the choreo is only used to better showcase the celeb on DWTS but it’s relevant when the choreo is submitted to showcase the pro’s work at the Emmys.
I agree with Carri. Being a relatively new fan, I would love to learn more about the prior seasons.
Just wanted to clarify for Carri – Witney was NOMINATED for an Emmy. She did not win one. Derek (and Julianne) is/are the only DWTS pros who have WON an Emmy. And Derek has 2. Chelsea and Mark what…? And TPTB stands for ‘The Powers That Be’.
It’s funny Laurie, I had to double check my thinking, with all the attention Witney received surrounding her nomination my mind does this thing where Emmy sticks to her name, and I forget she didn’t win, rather D/J/C Sia dance, AND Travis Wall did. It’s a bit ironic that the pros who threw shade and caused controversy ended up giving her more fame. I rarely remember the Emmy nominees after the year passes.
As far as using outside choreographers, I think it depends on the contract. If the pros are bound to creating their own pieces and don’t, they should lose their position. Otherwise, I really see nothing wrong with it. People subcontract out all the time. And, doesn’t the subcontractor work become the property of the main contractor? As far as people helping just to be helping, “thank you”. You have your reward.
Princess Heidi (57)…Very true. Reminds me of Mark and Derek. While I do think they have diff. styles at times. But, I do wonder if WItney and Lindsey use the same person, if and when they do.
Courtney (61), I can see your point. I actually was under the impression that a ghost was a “ghost” choreographer for the purposes of a show, not an awards nom.
I do think its a double-edged-sword. It reminds me (at least) of a songwriter/singer situation. If a singer is nominated for a song and they paid someone to write the song for them does the songwriter deserve an award, even if they were paid? I know its not exactly the same since they have their own categroy and its a very sticky situation especially with multiple factors at play on the show…but just because a process has been stagnant for a long time doesn’t mean its right. Honestly, I’m kind of torn about the whole situation of a ghost and being nominated or not. And I think that’s one of the reasons why its such a fine-lined debate and not black and white at all.
Overall, I’m okay with pros using ghosts, but my moral compass kicks into gear when thinking that a pro can be nominated or win a prestigious award, career changing award, if they paid someone for their ideas. Now if they changed it and didn’t use the exact step by step, breath by breath, routine…then its a diff. story. But how can you prove that, too sticky for me.
I wonder if TPTB have read this stuff or visit the site…hope they do and tell the pros to AMP UP the choreo (ghost or no ghost). Plus, I’m not 100% sure that every ghost is amazing.
That being said…can’t wait for Disney Night tomorrow! I wish Derek would make a little appearance in the Opening Number as a Master of Anything for the show. 🙂
I actually have a question in regards to team dances. I’m guessing the pros had complete control over thoseand there was no ghosting. They share the choreography credit for that right or does one pro get more credit than the others?
Trust me, EmnEm – lots and lots of people visit this site. 😉
Depends on what you’re talking about Vin. If you’re referring to Emmy’s, the rules say *significant contribution* – obviously two words with no real definition, but that pretty much rules out most of the ghosts. For Team Dances, my bet is there are one or two significant contributors on the team parts. Unfortunately, only three people can comprise a “team” – so if there are four team members, someone might get left out if a team dance is nominated.
Thank you for the answer! I was watching team dances today on YouTube becuase I was bored and i was curious.
I think the main issue is that dwts is not a choreography show! It’s a dancing show. Sytycd is a choreography and dancing show, dwts is a dancing and LEARNING show. When did people forget the? The choreography is supposed to be for beginners, anyway?
Heidi, lose the attitude and pick a different name. There’s only room for one of us here. 🙂
I’m sorry Heidi I didn’t think of that XD
Also I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to have an attitude! I just think that these arguments about choreography, are kind of an example of how this show has gone of course! Stellar choreography was never the point! It was the celebs learning to dance and their journey! 🙂
I like the new name. 🙂
It may not have originally been the point, but the show has grown and changed over the years – largely thanks to Derek, Mark and Julianne. BECAUSE they are amazing choreographers, they’ve forced the others to up their game and they’ve increased the expectations of the audience. You can’t unring that bell.
Choreography is a tricky art form. And yes, I do consider it an art form, especially in the hands of Derek or someone like ballet and Broadway’s Christopher Wheeldon.
It’s not like painting, sculpting, etc., where you’re working on an an inanimate object. Choreography is set on live people, which makes it a much more changeable and spontaneous medium. The best choreography on the show is inspired by the celeb as much as by the song or staging. That’s where Derek shines. He sees things in his partner that no one else sees, including the partner themselves! His routines are custom platinum settings where they can shine like a diamond.
That’s why so much of this season’s dances have been so disappointing. It’s going through the motions, uninspired, by the book choreography. Compare the way Lindsay sets off and enhances Wayna’s natural charisma and joy or the way Mark sets off Paige’s energy and enthusiasm with some of the other pro’s work.
Peta’s been doing good work with Nyle as well as Karina with Doug, so I’m thankful for that.
I’m really glad this post was written. I love reading about the artistic side of things. Thank you!