Dancing with the Stars Celebrities: “What Do You Mean, I’m A Ringer??” Part 1
This is the one issue that comes up over and over again when discussing DWTS. We see it in our comments; you see it tossed about on message boards like an accusation or castigation. Almost always it’s in reference to ALL of Derek’s partners, which is just ridiculous. Most of the male pros and a few of the female pros have had a ringer of one kind at one time or another – that’s just the way it goes. NO ONE has a ringer, or “dancer” every single time – that’s abundantly clear to anyone who engages their brain. Frankly, if we didn’t have the occasional ringer and had a season of mediocre dancing, I think people would tune out very, very fast. I don’t mind an amusing or talented ringer – what I DO mind is the revisionist history that follows a DWTS season where the accusations start to fly. Even the mainstream media and certain pro dancers (cough-Louis-cough) – never very clever at the best of times – chimes in on this hue and cry. It’s quite narrow minded. And it’s just not that simple – as I will show. 🙂
How do I define “ringer” – well, for me, it’s not so black and white. ALL kinds of people have advantages over other people going into the show that have NOTHING to do with dancing. To isolate ONE positive attribute (dance experience) and ignore the others is too simplistic and narrow minded. There are also degrees of dance experience from someone who taught dance (Mya) to someone who was in a music group which performed a lot of choreography (Nicole, Lance, Sabrina, Mel B, etc.). Even college or professional cheerleaders fall into the ringer camp, albeit a bit lower on the sliding scale than your average boy bander. There is no denying that training to be a cheerleader and learning the choreo gives you a leg up (cough) on someone like Shannon Doherty or Tom Delay. But if you took dance when you were a little girl, prior to even being a teen ager? Give me a break. We can certainly debate if there is a real difference between cheerleading and the Pussycat Dolls – but spare me the sermons on how Joanna took ballet until she was 11. If anyone is silly enough to point to that as an advantage – well then nearly ALL the female celebrities have that advantage. Not so.
But those are your ringers with dance experience – what about someone who comes on the show and you know instantly that they are going to win?? Wouldn’t they also be a ringer? I say absolutely. If you come on the show and you’re so beloved or popular (with the DWTS Demo) that everyone knows you’re going to win, then I say that’s a form of ringer all its own. Kristi, Shawn and Donny – all extremely popular athletes and entertainers and all nearly guaranteed a win. I say “nearly” because Shawn was nearly unseated by a hot, gorgeous, very talented dancer in Gilles Marini. On paper, however, Shawn was a shoe-in. Evan Lysacek almost falls into this camp and I thought he would win his season – but he apparently burned a few bridges in his time with a potentially huge voting block of skating fans. I would ordinarily put someone like Jennifer Grey in this category, but not this time, simply because her liabilities really did outweigh her popularity. Being age 50 is no small thing when it comes to the task of dancing on DWTS; add in the screws in her neck and the problems with her foot and you’ve got someone unlikely to actually win. That she did win is likely a testament to Derek’s ability to choreograph entertaining routines around a fairly limited amount of motion, compared to her competitors, most of which were at least 20 years her junior. All that said, I did give her a low level ringer status due to the age and physical ailments offsets. I also put KirstieAlley in this group at a lower level – she’s another older, beloved, iconic actress, although possibly not at the level of Jennifer Grey. Hard to say where to draw the line on that one, as she was older than Jennifer, but didn’t have the same physical ailments.
This is what I mean when I say all kinds of people have advantages (and in some cases huge disadvantages) coming into the show. You don’t get to just point and scream “RINGER!!!” unless you’re a child who doesn’t know any better. We’re going to use this blog to actually THINK about this. We’re going to discuss how the *disadvantages* a celebrity has have just as much impact on their chances of winning as their advantages do – no one is just a ringer in a vacuum. And we’re going to list all the pros and their partners, and where they fall on the sliding scale of “ringerdom”. 🙂 We’re also going to discuss the difference between dance “experience” and dance “ability” because a lot of people seem to think the two things are interchangeable. If you need Websters, this would be a good time to pull it out. 🙂 I’ll also talk about the difference between hindsight (all of Derek’s partners are dancers!!!), and who were actually likely to be good on paper going in. And who weren’t.
We’re going to start with the female pros, mainly because they are easier – and there are fewer true ringers. That will be in Part II – first, some notes on how I got to where I did on categorizing the dancers over the seasons.
Notes:
Here are the categories:
If a person falls into more than one of the categories I broke “ringers” into, they got labeled with the one most likely to take them far in the competition.
R&B/hip hop singers: If you call Lil’ Kim a ringer, you have to also call Debi Mazar one due to hip hop experience. And if you’re going to call both of them ringers, then you best add Aaron Carter and Romeo in there as well. I didn’t give any of these people ringer status of any kind, mainly because I don’t think any of them were known as dancers, like boy/girl banders would be. Same reason that I excluded Toni Braxton from this category. I did, however, include Mario as my impression was that he did have some experience with more choreography.
I didn’t label someone as a ringer if there was dance experience in childhood (no, ballet until age 11 does NOT make one a ringer). Or if they learned one or two dances for a movie. Therefore, if Jennifer is an experience ringer, so are Brandy and Ricki. I called none of them experience ringers, since it is very easy to fake it in a movie by doing multiple takes and just little sections of a dance at a time. Conversely, if someone did Broadway musicals, I gave them a low level ringer status mainly because that requires some choreography, and no second takes for flubs, like you get in the movies.
Broadway experience was not counted if it is off set by age. For example, Cloris is not labeled a ringer for her Broadway experience, but Marissa Jaret Winokur is a low level Ringer. John O’Hurley is a grey area – broadway experience more than 20 years ago, but still hale and hearty. Florence Henderson also has Broadway experience, but because of her age, I did not label her a ringer. I would argue that she stuck around a long time due to her popularity as Mrs. Brady, but again, lots of people would get that tag in hindsight.
I did not count performing arts high school as experience unless the person was still in their early 20’s, i.e. Monique Coleman. Hence, if you want to claim Nicole’s performing arts school helped her, you ALSO have to say the same for Brandy. Since Nicole has experience learning choreography for Pussycat Dolls, and Brandy only learned one dance for a movie, Nicole has the ringer label and Brandy doesn’t.
The only Olympians counted as fan base ringers are those in figure skating or gymnastics due to those sports being the main ones watched by DWTS older and younger female viewers. Apolo was included due to his extreme popularity at the time he participated on the show. For this reason, I have also included Hope Solo from Season 13, however, I give her a lower rating because I believe the extent of her popularity is debatable. She is included mainly for a high degree of media coverage prior to joining the show.
What is a “Dual attribute Ringer?” Well, there aren’t many of those. Those are the people who are not only extremely popular within the DWTS voting demographic, but also have some form of training. These are the people who, as soon as their name was announced, you knew they were going to win. Not only did they have dual ringer status, but they had no serious downside to their status. No jail time, no screws in their neck, and so on. All positives on paper and in reality. There are only TWO of them in 13 seasons. Can you guess who?? 🙂 If you guess one of Derek’s partners, you’re wrong.
Stay tuned for part 2, where we examine the female professionals and their celebrity partners…
Kristi Yamaguchi must be one! maybe…i am not sure – the other one is Apolo Ohno.
You have one right, Elara. 🙂
Great post! I know Kristi is on. I believe the other is Donny Osmond. Am I correct?
Interesting post Heidi. Looking forward to parts 2 and 3.
As for the dual ringers I’m thinking it must be the two skaters: Kristi and Evan.
thanks 🙂 i read the post one more time…my bad..this one is about male pros so…can i take another guess?
Shawn Johnson – nothing against Mark … i really appreciate him …but she is a great athlete…and she had the fanbase… so…she fits into the ringer status
Superb and extremely well-thought out post Heidi! I am looking forward to reading more of your research. I would guess the dual attribute ringers are Kristie Yamaguchi and Donny Osmond since both had the right popularity for the DWTS demographic and the previous dance experience.
This post is NOT about the men – this is just the warm up post, explaining my thought process. The male pros will be in part 3.
Elmari is correct. 🙂 Shawn and Evan didn’t quite make the cut, although I can see why others would be inclined to include them in dual ringer. I debated it for a long time. But will go over that in part 3. 🙂
I get it you’re hopelessly addicted to your love of Derek but cause YOU believe that it doesn’t mean everyone does and probably wont be changing anyones opinion anytime soon. You’re posting your personal opinions as facts when in all honesty none of all know what the real facts are. Personally I wish they’d start fresh with all new pro-dancers that aren’t generally known in american audiences. This show isn’t called Dancing with the Stars for no reason I turn in to watch the “stars” not for the pro-dancers.
@questionable…the pros are very important to the show. the new ones are making their way very hard in viewers’ hearts. the pros have their fans who vote for them …sometimes the star doesn’t really matter. Abc knows that. in many presentations you will see the rank of star alone and the rank with the pro. for example: Ricki alone was ranked 8, with her pro she goes at least for number 4…so…you see, it really matters who the pros are.
Oh dear, sweet troll, of course I realize that there is a portion of the readers who will simply refuse to engage their brains and think and discuss this intelligently – glad to see you representing that group.
Presenting my opinion as fact? Time for websters, dear. When a post is littered with the word “I” and “debate” and “discuss”?? It’s not being presented as fact. And guess what? Just cuz YOU say so, don’t make it true.
Thanks for playing.
IMHO the pros are the stars of DWTS. I don’t want any of them to ever leave! I love Cheryl, Derek, Kym, Maks, Mark, Tony and all the others. I really miss Julianne!
Heidi your analysis is amazing and shows great intellect.
This is a great post, Heidi. Very logically presented. I feel, though, it only scratches the surface, so I’m looking forward to parts 2 and 3. My guesses for the 2 DAR’s were Donny & Shawn, but I was torn between her and Kristi. Both won their seasons, but with a stringent application of the criteria you outline, I can see a strong argument being made that Kristi’s choreography training AND portraying story/mood/spirit in her figure skating would beat out Shawn’s gymnastics, which did not require either. Can’t say anyone in S13 fits the bill.
I think also that timing and pairing play a huge role. Could Emmet have won if he had been on the same season as Apolo? Would Mel B have won with a different partner? There are so many variables to this show, you almost need to apply chaos theory 🙂
So far I’m liking everything about this season – all the celebs; fresh blood in the pro line up. Can’t wait to see the first rehearsal videos, which I know Vogue will have up as soon as available. Gotta love all the hard work ya’ll put into this site. Muwaahhh xxoox
It’s probaly Kristi and Evan. I knew Kristi would win, but once I found out Nicole did hip hop and was paired with Derek, I knew Evan would come in second. I didn’t have a problem with that. I’m in love with him. I was upset he won season 10 because I loved Evan and Anna, they are still my #1 favorite couple ever. I was a little more upset season 11 because I didn’t want Jrnnifer to win. Why? Because I loved Kyle. He and Lacey are my #3 fav couple of all time(#2 is Ralph and Karina) Yes, I believe the dual attribute ringers are Kristi and Evan. My head says it’s those two, but my gut says a footballer replaces Evan. But no. I’m going with my head
It might be Shawn Johnson instead of Kristi… Nah, I’m sticking with Kristi. Love you Shawn! Glad you won!!! I was rooting for Kristi too!
The only casting problem I had was with Nicole. I don’t think she should been cast due to her extensive choreography with pussycat dolls and her inability to own up it. Towards the end she said that she hasnt much dance experience or something along that line something about that irked and I wasn’t a fan after that. But that’s JMO.
Oh shoot, I shouldve read the comments before I posted. Yeah, I thought of Donny, but Evan came to mind first. I thought of Evan because of his choreography experience with skating, plus he was fresh off the Olympics.
Linde, Emmit did win. And Mel B wouldve won if Maks didn’t open his mouth and say Jennie shouldve been in the finale instead of Marie. Yes, there many different theories fir everything that happens on the show. Except the pathetic(an understatment) WTA cha cha. There’s one big explanation. The judges loved their little precious Chelsea and Mark(who weren’t my favorites, but I still liked them) were afraid their favorite team wouldn’t make the finale, so they came up with a little dance to rig the voting and give C and M 15 bonus points to guarentee them a spot in the finale. Why thr didn’t like Ralph is a mystery to me. CA, Len, and Bruno have lost all if my respect and credibitliy.
Heidi. Jennifer Grey has a dance background, quit trying to deny that simple fact. Her winning was because she was best and most experienced Dancer that season. Derek did a good job but he is no better than the Jonathan Roberts of the worlds, he just always gets the good, able bodied people. His praise is so overtop sometimes, lots of his work are blatant ripoffs and Louis is right about Derek the golden boy. He will probably win this year too, cause he the got the one with dance experience.
Lindel, what makes you so sure that Nicole was lying?? She lived it after all and you’re relying on third party sources for you info. She is very obviously a trained singer – one only needs to listen to her sing opera to know that. Any dance training she had is not likely more than what Sabrina, mel b or others of that level have had – or more than what kristie had, for that matter and she was much more a sure thing than Nicole.
You guys not only confuse hindsight with knowledge beforehand, but you completely ignore natural ability. You think that because nicole went to a performing arts school that it was ALL training and not just talent. So, how do you explain Gilles and Brooke, eh? Are they lying? Did they secretly have dance training?
Look, Nicole is a ringer because of Pussycat Dolls – but to excuse Sabrina, Mel B, Joey Fatone, lance, and others and not Nicole is just ridiculous. Some people are just better dancers, plain and simple – but being a better dancer does not automatically mean they had more or better training.
The only person that I would gripe about being cast is kristi – no one was going to beat kristi, including Nicole, who was a better dancer.
I knew this would be a cool post!!! +1 Miss Heidi!! It’s funny because not once have I ever said at the beginning of the season which person was going to win and spelled “ringer”. I had not a clue and still don’t. Excellent write up. I can’t wait for Part 2 and 3!!
Linde, definitely to your last paragraph. You can count on it. 😉
And we have another contender for the small percentage unwilling to think or discuss intelligently – welcome aboard.
You don’t even know how I’ve categorized jennifer yet, so you’re really not sharp.
If you’re going to accuse me of bias, you should make sure your comment doesn’t read like it was written jealous, petty, child first. We all have bias – try owning yours.
Sad Heidi, I knew it wouldn’t take long for posts like that to show up. I’ll never understand why some fans can’t accept or admit how truly gifted Derek is….and I can say and admit to that even during the seasons I was rooting for Maks.
@Heidi Im not saying she not naturally talented but I do believe that her days in the pussycat dolls certainly helped more so than harmed her. I’ve seen them live and they did big dance numbers and certainly videos to a lesser extent with being multiple takes. Im not trying to argue or “troll” just discussing my opinion. I hope no one thinks I am.
Im gonna be honest off the top, I didn’t read all of ur post, but I am fascinated by the concept of ringers. I agree that at one point in time most professionals have at least one ringer or multiple if they r fairly popular. I think the reason derek has stood out recently (I noticed around the nicoles era) is production or the heads fault and not his at all. For example, derek gets a by chance gets a ringer like nicole, and wins his season. If I’m a star…he just won so he’s a winner and I want him. So if production wants jen grey they cater to her and give her derek (not his fault)…and prod wants brandy (ringer) so they give her one the tops in maksim, but let’s face it in the dwts demo jen grey much more pop than brandy. So it becomes an annoying cycle of catering to certain stars…not the pros fault but still annoying. Cuz u get pros who are perpetually screwed and ones who are spoon fed
Oh, Lindel I was not referring to you with that last post of mine, I was referring to that “thesamelastname” character who clearly didn’t even read anything I wrote and it’s willing to discuss the issues intelligently.
That said, I KNOW the Pussycat dolls did big dance numbers, and I’ve labeled Nicole a ringer. Where I take issue is that you’re essentially calling Nicole a liar about her degree of training – and I don’t understand why it’s okay for Sabrina, Mel B, Joey F, Drew Lacey, MYA and countless others to have the same experiences. Why do you not call out them?? Because Nicole is a better dancer?? Well, that is where natural talent comes into play. Kinda like Lance Bass was in a boy band that did a lot of choreo – but he wasn’t as good at it as the others in his group. But he still has the experience. Follow??
Vogue, it’s not even about Derek anymore, really – some people just aren’t smart enough to engage in this discussion.
Calling people stupid or unintelligent just because they don’t agree with you is pretty mean-spirited and is the behavior of a bully.
I like Derek a lot. In fact his partnership with Lil’ Kim is tied for my favorite couple along with Apolo & Julianne. But he’s not above criticism, people should be allowed to criticise him and his partners without getting personal insults thrown at them. Seriously why bother having a place where people can post their opinions if you just bully them and chase them away from here by saying they’re not intelligent enough. I certainly haven’t noticed any lack of intelligence, just people with different opinions to you.
I doubt Derek would be pleased to know he has fans like this, he’s a nice guy.
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Back to your question at the end of the post, I think Kristi and Shawn must be the two Dual attribute ringers (DARs) that you ask us to guess.
I want to agree with Pam, way up in post #11. I watch DWTS now more for the pros than the stars. The stars are the ones who allow the pros to shine, and awe us with their abilities.
Heidi, I wonder if those who are just taking swipes at Derek and his partners are actually “reading” what you wrote? The levels in “ringers” for what you wrote is fascinating. They need to get past the “They have ______, so that means the are a “ringer” and look at the actual “facts” and try to look at this logically. Try and put away any biases, etc.
And right now, there is no way Ricki Lake is a “ringer”, but, by the time this is said and done and she makes it to the top 3 or more, they will say she is ringer. Please!
Heidi: “Where I take issue is that you’re essentially calling Nicole a liar about her degree of training – and I don’t understand why it’s okay for Sabrina, Mel B, Joey F, Drew Lacey, MYA and countless others to have the same experiences. Why do you not call out them?? Because Nicole is a better dancer?? Well, that is where natural talent comes into play. Kinda like Lance Bass was in a boy band that did a lot of choreo – but he wasn’t as good at it as the others in his group. But he still has the experience. Follow??”
Well said!
Heidi- I think the reason people got mad about nicole more than they did with the other bands, is because Nicole(it was mentioned in the semi finale or the finale I forget which) had majored in dance in college. They just never said if she had her degree in dance or only majored in it.
Oh Chelsea, I’m devastated that Derek might not agree. :::rolls eyes:::
It is very obvious that some people are not willing to engage in an intelligent discussion – that does not mean they are stupid, just acting it. Why? Well, it’s much more difficult to admit that all the pros have had advantages than it is to just blame Derek for all the problems you have with the show. Interestingly enough, the people doing that have never posted here before. Hmmm…wonder what that means?
Vogue, no, it is very obvious that a couple are not even reading what I wrote. That would be too hard. 🙂
Teresa, according to what I’ve read she majored in acting and musical theater – a far cry from majoring in dance, although I suppose there is some dance involved. But “Majoring” in something is what you actually get your degree in – I would know. But it’s helpful for those who hate that Derek “gets all the dancers”. 🙂 But even if it were true – Mya not only was trained in dance, but she was teaching dance just prior to doing DWTS. So why is there no outrage over her? Because she didn’t win?? Well, that’s not very logical, is it.
That said – I’ve never disputed that Nicole was a ringer – just that she was one of many that Derek had. She was the only experience one he had.
Interesting post….and more eloquently stated than what I previously posted about most actors, actresses,skaters, and gymnasts having a little edge over someone like say, a Wendy Williams , or a Ty Murray. But, Ty is an athlete, and they also have an edge, even if it is in agility and timing. Heidi has given us degrees of ringers, and I can certainly agree with that.
But please, don’t call those of us who don’t agree that Derek is the greatest thing since sliced bread, less that intelligent. Derek is an excellent dancer, instructor, and choreographer. But in my opinion he’s no better than the other pros. Notice I said , in my opinion. We all can agree to disagree without resorting to name calling.
I enjoy reading the posts here, and will continue. Heidi put a lot of work and thought and research into this first installment, and I’m looking forward to reading the next.
Great thoughts. I’d say Kristi—and who minds—because she was doing so much artistic dancing on ice for years. Some of her routines, like with Denis Petrov, were just exquisite. Then, you have her incredible work ethic, athleticism, competitive spirit, charisma and, yes, good partner. I’ve often wondered, give Jennifer G to Tony or Nicole S to Maks and what would have happened. One day there will be DWTS games like they have for football, baseball, etc. where players from different eras can face off.
“Derek did a good job but he is no better than the Jonathan Roberts of the worlds” Just ask Simon Cowell, he has the X Factor, charisma, knows how to pace/play the competition, there is a certain entertainment flavor, which Mark also has. Corky is a bit off in personality, but he and his wife sure trained a lot of folks well.
@Vogue – I love ya, but you never thought Donnie Osmond was a ringer, and most definitely would win DWTS? His fanbase was enormous. As soon as they announced his name the first thing I said was he will definitely win the MBT, and the rest of the cast will just be filler. That was the only year I knew who was going to win, no competition there, the other competitors never stood a chance. 🙂
FWIW, Nicole’s MTV bio says that she minored in dance in college. I would think that would have included training in a variety of dance styles and types (other than what she does in PCDs). If true, I personally would look at this as more extensive than Mya learning/teaching only tap dancing, but maybe I just don’t know Mya’s whole background.
Like Lindel, I’m not sure that I think it was fair to cast Nicole in the first place (a decision made by TPTB, NOT Nicole or Derek). But that aside, she was the best dancer and earned the win. They produced some great performances and raised the bar for the other competitors. There was some great dancing that season.
Sandy, no, I didn’t think Donny was a ringer when I first heard he was going to dance. I hadn’t seen the others dance yet. Plus, he was older and a little over weight. (I love you too!)
of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion…that is why we are here…to share opinions. and as always beauty is in the eye of the beholder…so, in my opinion Derek is the best . probably Nicole though he is the best too, so she asked for him. i think that Mya was also a ringer, maybe bigger then Nicole…but she didn’t win…maybe it was her fault, maybe her pro didn’t make the best of her…i don’t know. Derek knows how to let them shine, Kym always works wonders with her partners too. it’s a science and a talent. some have it…some don’t.
Adding: At the time, I didn’t think Donny’s fanbase would be “enormous” either being he hadn’t a hit in years. Also, just because they have some Broadway or Las Vegas appearances under their belt, doesn’t mean they are shoe in for a MB.
The only people I’m calling out are those that resort to their own version of foot stamping and crying. Period. If you can’t read this post and discuss it logically, then you get no respect from me and I will not discuss with those people. There is no point as they have no real interest in engaging anyway. Also, it has nothing to do with Derek – I don’t give a rats ass what you say about Derek unless it’s complete myth repeated ad nauseum by the children at the ABC boards. THAT I will argue with, particularly when we haven’t even really touched on his partners or those of Maks and Mark yet. I have to wonder if there is a bit of preemptive lashing out going on here, from a couple new visitors.
As for a minor in college – I’m minored in psychology, and NO ONE would consider me a psychologist. Now, I might have some insight that others might not have, but I’m far from an expert. Mya’s experiences are CURRENT, whereas Nicole’s schooling was more distant. Mya was definitely a bigger ringer than Nicole in my book, BUT she was up against one of the ringiest ringers of all time who had personality where she had little, whereas Nicole was up against two ringers who just weren’t as good as her.
Ahem. Jonathan Roberts is a world champion in ballroom, is he not??
Donny Osmond is the other ultimate ringer, FYI. He not only danced and entertained his whole life and took ballroom lessons before DWTS, but his fanbase is massive and legendary. How casting Nicole is worse than casting someone like Donny Osmond or Kristi Yamaguchi I will never understand – unless you’re Kim and Mark fans, of course. 🙂 Those two people are the only ones I’ve looked at and knew they were going to win before they even hit the floor – Shawn and Evan were VERY close to that, as well, but after a lot of debate I left them out of that club. But like we always say around here…DWTS IS NOT FAIR. It never has been.
Vogue, Donny didn’t just have some Vegas appearances – their family headlined a show there for quite a long time, ala Celine. That speaks to a huge fanbase. He’s the 50 year olds version of Justin Bieber if Justin carries his rabid fanbase with him into middle age. I’m being completely serious – these people put the fan in fanatic. You weren’t working the site at the time but Courtney and I had quite the job moderating the comments anytime we said anything that wasn’t glowing about Donny. It was Kuh-razy.
Great post Heidi! Very informative and well written. Looking forward to Part II.
LOL Heidi, interesting!!! I guess I was just never this huge Donny fan (though I did end up liking him on the show). I was more into David Cassidy. lol
@Vogue – Awww, David Cassidy…. Those were the days!! 🙂
LOL Yep! I’d love to see David do the show someday.
Nothing irritates me more than trolls who can’t even be bothered to read through a post before coming out swinging with arguments that don’t even make sense. 😛
Donny Osmond is the ringiest ringer the show has ever seen – his fanbase alone was probably enough to get him that MBT, but he actually could dance on top of that. And that fanbase of his is RABID – I think they’d give any Markette, Hough Head, or Maksette a run for their money. Clearly time has not mellowed some of these 40 & 50-something ladies’ ardor for Donny – and if you don’t agree with them, oooh girl…watch out. I had the “gall” to say some not-so-positive things about the guy when blogging for season 9, and I was getting some serious aggression from some of his more passionate fans. I think the only person who could come close to rivaling Donny’s level of ringerosity is Donnie Wahlberg – if he ever did the show. Talk about a guy with a large, still-rabid-after-all-these-years fanbase and dance skills to boot! But my big question is this: would he even be labeled a ringer by the average DWTS viewer? Seems like a title that only gets slapped on female celebrities…and it’s usually only female celebrities paired with Derek.
If you are going to do an analysis of the so called “ringer” description of certain celebrities matched with certain DWTS pros. Why not include obvious editing the rehearsal videos to influence viewers. Impartiality of judges, overlooking some faux pauxs & exagerating others. Then the big one the extra 15 pts awarded by judges at the finale to further sway the outcome to ABC DWTS wishes.
Derek does not always get ringers! He knows how to play the game. Dereks only “ringer” was Nicole. She had some hip hop experience, but didn’t have nearly as much experience as Mya. The producers have tried to give Derek “bad” partners, but he can turn them into really good dancers. If Derek was given a Kate Gosselin or a Wendy Williams, I think he wouldve turned them into decent dancers. If Jennie, Shannon, Lil Kim, Joanna, or even Brooke and Jennifer wouldve done nearly as well if they had a new professional, who watched two or three seasons said ,”Hey, I wanna do this!” then got a job with dwts? No. He wouldnt know how to play the
game. I think Nicole mightve made it to the top 5, maybe. But don’t hate Derek. He doesn’t get ringers. He is a greater teacher, dancer, and choreographer.
Well, erendira, this series isn’t about judging, or editing or even really dance ability (although I will touch on that for the sake of pointing out the difference between that and “experience”) – it’s about who had advantages going into the show. It’s actually very confused by a lot of fans who love to point at someone after the fact and say, “She’s a dancer, no fair!!” when there was little to no evidence of that prior to actually dancing. Whether someone wins or loses, gets good scores or bad scores, or a good edit or a bad edit has NOTHING to do with their ringer status…unless it’s to favor them to make them stick around longer. But I don’t think that’s consistent with all ringers, or all the partners of one pro, at all. Besides, one persons bad edit is another persons okay edit, or accurate edit. It’s much more subjective.
I agree with Auntie Bellum. The nice thing about this topic is that it’ll bring a lot of different views but could there be a bit more respect for those who have differing views? IMO respect brings about a lot more interesting and intelligent conversations.
I think the subject of ringers is very subjective. But major props to Heidi for making levels. Super helpful. It’s important to always factor in not only ability but fanbase and charisma. I think Maks has gotten so many athletes because of height. A majority (NOT all) of the female athletes we see are pretty tall. He makes sense since I believe he is the tallest male pro at 6’2.
Derek is not a supreme God of dance, nor does he possess any magical talent to make terrible dancers better. He gets better results because he has had good partners. And Heidi trying to pretend that Jennifer Grey doesn’t have a dance background is flat out wrong. If you want to prove a point your point, use Brooke Burke, he did a good job with her. Yes, he’s very talented and charismatic, but lets not forget the fact he doesn’t even always do his own choreography and some of it is a blatant ripoff.
FYI, i happen to like Derek a lot and I think he’s a darn good dancer, choreographer and teacher, but the praise is over the top. Basically, he doesn’t sabotage his ringers chances because of uninspiring and bland choreography like other pros have done in the past. (Maks, Tony, Dmitry, Anna, I’m looking at you) Mark, Cheryl, Kym, and Derek get how to choreograph for this show (and all are good teachers). I also think Louis is fab, but unlike Derek he hasn’t been given much to work with.
If he had Kate Gosselin, the results would have been the same, because Kate sucks at dancing. Give derek someone who sucks at dancing and watch him be underwhelming.
Not every ringer wins all the time. Stacy Keibler is a great dancer, but Tony sucks as a teacher and choreographer…doesn’t know how to play the game of DWTS. Same reason why Melissa Rycoft l
Donny won because he can dance and his partner, despite being an underwhelming dancer, is a good teacher and choreographer.
Maks keeps losing because he, like Tony, he isn’t a great teacher and his choreography is bland. Check out his stupid freestyle with MEl B.
Another famous is example is Mya…..Dmitry made her work too easy. She should have won, but Donny earned it.
Maks is a good teacher, so is Tony. If Maks wasn’t a good teacher, would Kirstie Alley have gotten 2nd? No. Maks kind of ruins his chances st getting the mirrorball because of his freestyles. Sorry, Maks, but you have yet to come up with a mind-blowing freestyle that everyone will remember and will be in our history books in 20 years. Tony is also a good teacher. He did the best he could with Kate Gosselin. If Tony wasn’t a good teacher, she wouldve been gone in the first 30 minutes of the show.
Thesamenameaslasttime– That’s some pretty serious accusations that you are throwing at Derek without any proof –> “lets not forget the fact he doesn’t even always do his own choreography and some of it is a blatant ripoff. ” Why don’t you give us some actual EVIDENCE before stating it as FACT.
And no one here has called Derek “the supreme God of Dance”… only you it seems.
“Give derek someone who sucks at dancing and watch him be underwhelming.” — Ahem.. Lil Kim and Joanna. Maks said Lil Kim would have been difficult for anybody and Derek was able to hide a lot of Joanna’s weaknesses. But even if Derek was given a ‘Kate Gosselin’, he’s proven to be one of the most creative choreographers on the show. So I bet he could still create an entertaining performance.
You say that you like Derek, but your post is full of insults to him. Sort of an oxymoron, I think.
Same name person, you are now making baseless accusations and a little ” I like Derek” is not enough to camoflage it. You are coming very close to the troll line where I start deleting you.
If you would READ what I said, I said that I take the disadvantages into consideration as well as the advantages, and I do indeed have Jennifer listed as a fan base ringer – but no, you just can’t read and comprehend, can you? Jennifer is a 50 year old woman who had neck surgery with screws before the show – that, IMO and that of any rational person, negates that she went to a prep school of the arts 32 years before. It was HIGH school – one similar to that attended by BRANDY much more recently. If you make Jennifer an experience ringer, you make brandy one as well. Period. And brandy is 20 years younger.
It stuns me that people are so ridiculous as to think that jennifers experience gives her more advantage than people 20 years her junior especially when they also went to a performing arts school, like brandy. Makes me think that some will never be able to discuss this rationally or logically – they’re simply incapable.
Also, it strikes me at this point that I’m not the one obsessed with Derek – you and your ilk certainly are though.
Allie, as soon as everyone starts showing respect, they will get it in return. Not referring to you of course, but of the people who can’t discuss it without throwing insults or accusations. I tend to respond to nasty tones. No apologies.
Ok. Every- wait no, most pros have had good dancers and bad dancers. Jonathan Roberts had all bad dancers, except Marie who wasn’t bad but wasn’t good. Ashly Delgrosso/Costa also comes to mind. She never had a good partner. Joey McIntire back in season 1 was probaly her best. ANDREA HALE. I know, everyone just went, “Who?” she did one season, her partner was Kenny Mayne. Poor Andrea. Everyone remembers Kenny as the worst dancer on the show(Master P takes the cake on that) but no one remembers Andrea, the person who had to put up with him. So yes, Jonathan Roberts, Ashly Delgrosso/Costa, and Andrea Hale gave never gotten a good partner. Yes, you might not count them because they aren’t “regulars” but they are pros. If you are just talking about “regulars”, then yeah, gheve all had good and bad partners
I have seen Mark blatantly copy that samba from Yulia and Max as well Stacy Tookey among others. But criticizing only Derek?
I find this post interesting and looking forward to the rest. The tiers are smart categorizing.
You know it’s interesting. In the OTRC (I think) interviews from the night the cast was introduced,Elizabetta mentioned that she dances as part of her job. Before the partnerships were announced, I also saw a few claims she was a dancer with youtube links. Since the partnerships were announced, I haven’t seen a peep about it. If she had been paired with Derek, I bet we would be hearing a hue and cry pointing to it as further evidence Derek ALWAYS gets the dancer. Interesting that it doesn’t seem to matter so much when it’s not Derek’s partner at issue.
“So yes, Jonathan Roberts, Ashly Delgrosso/Costa, and Andrea Hale gave never gotten a good partner? would be nice to see what Ashley and Jonathan can do again. But at least they are starting to mix it up a bit with the pros. Now, we need replacement judges, give one of the regulars a sabbatical. I do want to see each of the judges do a demonstration/performance on results show, like Tom and Samantha did!
EXACTLY my point Peonies. Exactly. If a ringer is not Derek’s partner, no one says a word.
Of course the other way to look at this is that Derek has star power and is destined for bigger things. 😉
Two possible ringers for Season 13? I can guess at maybe one… Elisabetta Canalis, perhaps?
With all the talk of ringers, I wonder why no one has brought up Drew Lachey’s name? He had the boy band experience and Broadway. While he didn’t have the big name factor, it probably helped that his brother sat in the audience just about every week.
Drew is covered in part 2, Winter. He’s not been forgotten. 🙂
No the Ringer accusations are on Ricki now.
Mya, dance wise, was the biggest ringer. She was a dancer who became a singer. Nicole was a singer who danced. PCD danced, not ballroom mind you, but they said Nicole was hired for her singing skills. The others were her back up dancers. I think the threat that Heidi mentioned has some truth. I think Nicole by herself on a season with Erin and Evan was no big deal. But paired with Derek, with his skills, was a threat. He did not get a ringer until then. Maks, Tony, Mark had ringers before him. I think what he pulled out with in ringers and then getting Nicole, it was a real threat.
As for Evan, his skating made him a ringer. But he was not that dual ringer like Kristi because if fan base. He upset a lot of fans of his rivals and he was not known for being the nicest guy. Some called him arrogant or entitled.
I want to add another element why Shawn is a ringer, may e that dual ringer. Not only her sport and a freestyle round with her gymnastics skills gives her advantage on tricks and flps. But also she reminded the main core viewers of their own daughter, little sister or granddaughter. Never underestimate that appeal.
I think one of the things that bothered a lot of people about Nicole was her attitude and the way the judges scored her. I haven’t watched the season in a while so I’m recounting from memory, but I remember her grating on me. She was a great dancer–I’ll give her that, and Derek’s choreography DID highlight her strengths. I LOVED their 50s paso doble. But there was something about her rehearsal footage that really made me wrinkle my nose at her.
Then she came right out the gate getting 10s while everyone else was starting on the “normal” curve of progressively getting better. Even when she got criticism from the judges, they gave her higher scores than their comments would suggest. I realize this isn’t her fault, either, but it just compounded my aggravation toward her.
In short, it wasn’t JUST Nicole and her actions (like her crying because people kept calling her a dancer, and I seriously rolled my eyes) that made me dislike her and think it unfair for her to be on the show. It was a combination of things. And I want to say she made it sound like she had NO choreography experience at all. Mya, for me, was just bland, and I didn’t care for her personality, and I didn’t see the season with Brandy, but Nicole was too in your face about her having no choreography experience at all for me.
Interesting post Heidi and good theories.
But IMO, despite all this ringer stuff there’s something also very important: “the freestyle factor” (TFF).
TFF had put Stacy, Gilles, Mýa down, to point a few…
Heidi- I think Mya didn’t get the backlash because she didn’t let ppl know she taught dance. Just my thought though, since it seems if ppl don’t realize the “star” is a ringer during the season there is less backlash/temper tantrums about it.
Carlos…I’m not sure what you’re saying. It doesn’t matter who wins and who doesn’t for them to be a ringer – however, I think that in fans minds that does get mixed in unfairly. Like thinking Maks hasn’t had any ringers because he’s never won – nope, he’s had a few, actually. That is where the freestyle comes in, sure – but it’s not about winning. It’s about if they are a ringer or not.
Joey Lawrence got 2 tens in week 2. Sabrina got a perfect 30 in week 4. Kristi Yamaguchi got 27 in week 1, week 2 and Week 3. In week 4 she got a 29 (2 tens). Gilles got a 27 in week 2. Mya got 27’s in weeks 2 and 3.
What did Nicole get? She got a 25 in Week 1 and a 28 in week 2 – but a 23 in week 3. Evan was actually beating her on points in weeks 3 and 4. She didn’t get a 29 until week 5. She didn’t get a perfect 30 until week 8.
My point is, holding someones high scores against them – in Nicole’s case, it’s really not fair, since there were others who came before her that did MUCH better in the early scoring department. As for the rest of it, well, if you don’t like somebody, you don’t like them. But that isn’t what makes them a ringer nor does it justify focusing on her as a ringer to the exclusion of everyone else.
@Princess Heidi: I didn’t get into DWTS until the season with Kelly Osborne, so I can’t attest to anything before that, and I might have missed a few seasons in between, too. I’d completely forgotten about Mya, so sorry for that.
I was just offering what I think might be contributing to the focus on Nicole as a ringer over some of the others who had a similar playing field. When people fixate on someone as a ringer, I don’t think it’s simply dance ability/experience/etc that gets people outraged. I think a lot of it has to do with how likable the celebrity is, how the judges treat them, etc. This all comes in with hindsight (which, I think, you labeled as one of the problems, which I agree with), but I still think it plays a factor in how angry people get with a ringer.
The pre-season ringer talk doesn’t sound to be as bad as things get after the season is over, and I think that’s because all these other factors start getting added in. I also think the definition of “ringer” changes from pre- to post-season. Pre-season, it seems more along the lines of what the original post details. Post-season, it becomes more about audience perception of dancing ability, based on a celebrity’s profession, and compared with others on the show (particularly if a fan favorite went home instead of the ringer).
So, yeah. In short, I don’t think everyone’s always working with the same definition of ringer, and I don’t think some people make these judgments based on fact alone, like you do when being objective in your posts. To be honest, until you brought it up, I hadn’t thought about how fan base could make someone a ringer, but I definitely see the logic in that.
Oh, I know what you were doing, Emmanuelle, and I appreciate that – I was just pointing out how it’s not particularly logical for people to do that.
The fans perceptions is really what we’re fighting here – they get it in their heads that someone is the biggest ringer ever for all the reasons you mention and before you know it, they think it’s fact when it’s anything but fact. At the end of the day, what we’re talking about is bias.
Can’t wait to see parts 2 and 3. And I have read the entire post and all the comments, I do not see where Heidi has made any comments about anyone’s intelligence. All she has said is that people don’t seem to be willing to have an intelligent discussion.
@ P Heidi
Do u think Ricki falls into Marissa J W category?
They all had “ringers” of course. However, Derek never ever a Nancy Grace, Dennis Richard, Kim K. All the other have had their share.
Plus, none of his partners has had another job to attend while doing dwts or travel. All his partners had more time to practice.
I have more respect for Mark who really turned Bristol into a dancer or Tony who was able to work with Kate. Until I see Derek’s teaching skills tested/challenged I won’t be able to know how good he is.
P.S. How many 50 y/o do you think can do a split like J. Grey? Not many.
Well, Maddy, how do you know he hasn’t had a Denise or a Kim?? I think that Joanna Krupa fills that bill quite nicely, he just taught her to dance. By all rights, on paper, Denise and Kim should have been good – there is no difference between them and Jennie Garth, Shannon Elizabeth or Joanna Krupa – or Brooke Burke for that matter. What YOU are doing is using hindsight to claim that Mark had a more difficult job and did it better, which is just bull – it’s luck of the draw combined with possibly better teaching methods. You think Bristol could dance? I think she had a lot of fringe voters and help from the judges – no dancing required. ANYONE could work with Kate (although as I recall Tony stormed out), NO ONE could make her a dancer – so how is that admirable?? It’s very easy to look backward and claim they gave Derek all good dancers. But when looking at them from the perspective of BEFORE the dancing started, then there is no discernable difference between them. How is anyone to know that Dennise Richards (or Kendra, who was given great odds by the odds makers) were going to suck beforehand?? As for Jennifer being able to do the splits? That hardly negates the fact that she had very limited range of movement from the waist up. The woman had to have surgery when the show was over.
This clearly illuminates the problems a lot of fans have – they use perfect hindsight to claim that Derek is always given “dancers”. Well, you know what they say about hindsight.
And how do you know that Nancy CAN’T dance and that Ricki can?? What are you going to do if it turns out to be exactly the opposite of what you claim??
For the record, no, I don’t have Ricki as a ringer – she was in a movie 22 years ago. If you make Ricki a ringer, you also have to make BRANDY a ringer. If you saw the original Hairspray, I doubt you would call her a ringer either. Or maybe YOU would – but it’s not terribly logical. I don’t have anyone from Season 13 as an experience ringer, I have Hope as a “maybe” on fanbase and media attention.
Maddy, Maddy, Maddy…
…DENISE RichardS, and I’m not sure why you’re roping Nancy Grace into a category with her & Kim Kardashian when you haven’t even seen her dance yet.
Mark turned Bristol into a dancer? You must have a very low standards for dancing, then, since many people seem to agree that Bristol danced like crap. Ditto for Tony working with Kate…whatever work he did with her must’ve been to keep them on speaking terms, because I certainly didn’t see any payoff in her dancing.
So apparently being able to do a split at age 50 makes you a shoo-in for the MBT then, Maddy? Pam Anderson must’ve missed the memo…she was 43 & stricken with Hepatitis C when doing DWTS and she could split every bit as good as Jen.
If you’re gonna come play with the grown-ups, Maddy, at least come armed with legitimate arguments. It at least gives the appearance that you’re not trolling to get a rise out of Heidi.
Let’s not forget that the decision to continue working a day job while on DWTS is the celebs choice. If their dancing suffers for it, tough shit. That’s the single most ridiculous comment I’ve seen in a while.
I agree. I never thought Bristol could dance….not even at the end!! Political supporters of Sarah were the only reason Bristol stayed on like she did.
Heidi, I am so looking forward to Part 2!
Well, that and she was ridiculously over scored. I was watching S8 last night for my judges scoring series and Len gave Steve O’s rumba with Lacey a *4*. If I remember correctly, he gave that gawdawful gorilla suit dance a 7 or 8. THAT is why she stuck around so long in addition to a small group of wacko fans. Think old Len is a republican??? 🙂
I totally agree, Vogue & Heidi!
That too Heidi!! LOL to Len being a Republican. He could be!!
Nobody in season 13 is an experience ringer? Doesn’t Elizabetta dance as part of her job? Kristen said she took ballet and was a cheerleader in college. I don’t know if the ballet was as a kid (which I agree doesn’t mean ringer) but the cheerleading was very recent. Those are just the two I heard about just casually following the preseason action. Maybe there are mitigating factors to their experience? I don’t know.
I dunno, Peonies – I couldn’t find anything on either Elisabetta OR Kristen. If you can send me a link, being a cheerleader in college definitely makes you a low level experience ringer. Especially since it was so recent for Kristen.
Heidi, check out the latest post on Kristin (with the access video). She mentions taking ballet and how she was a cheerleader in highschool.
Cheerleader in high school??? Hmmmm….grey area. Some highschools don’t have cheerleaders who are actually dancers like colleges and pro ball do. Tough call.
[…] This is Part 2 in what will likely be a 3-part series. If you want to read Part 1, you can find it here —> I’m a Ringer?? […]