DWTS 14, Week 7 – Who’s Got the Edge in the Team Dances?
So we now know for sure what the team dances are (paso doble & tango) and who’s on what team (Katherine, Maria, Jaleel, & Roshon vs. William, Donald, & Melissa). So who’s gonna win? Let’s see how they stack up. I looked at several factors that could come into play in helping to determine who has the advantage – experience level of the pros on each team, experience level of the couples on each team, number of couples on each team, what dance each team has, and other miscellaneous factors that may affect the outcome. So let’s get to it!
Pro Team Dance Experience
Derek: 6 wins (seasons 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13), 0 losses, 0 ties; average team dance score: 27.5
Cheryl: 4 wins (seasons 7, 8, 10, 13), 1 loss (season 11), 0 ties; average team dance score: 26.8
Kym: 2 wins (seasons 7 & 9), 1 loss (season 13), 1 tie (season 12); average team dance score: 25.75*
Maks: 2 wins (seasons 11 & 13), 1 loss (season 10), 1 tie (season 12); average team dance score: 25*
Chelsie: 1 win (season 8), 0 losses, 1 tie (season 12); average team dance score: 25*
Mark: 0 wins, 2 losses (seasons 8 & 11), 1 tie (season 12); average team dance score: 23.67*
Peta: 0 wins, 0 losses, 0 ties (never been in a team dance); average team dance score: 0
*Since there were 4 judges’ scores given for the team dances in season 12, I subtracted Donnie Burns’ score from the two team dances in that season in order to normalize with all of the other seasons, which only had 3 judges’ scores.
Team Tango: I’d say their biggest advantage is having Derek – the guy’s undefeated, so he’s clearly figured out the formula for what works and what doesn’t work in the team dances. Say what you will about team dances being a product of all the pros working together (I agree to some extent), but the only common denominator in every single team dance win has been Derek, regardless of what other pros have been on each team with him, what the dance style has been, etc. Many of the pros have also gone on record as saying that they tend to let Derek take the lead when choreographing the group portions of the team dance, so I’d say he probably has a lot to do with the success of each of the teams he’s on, as the judges do tend to really harp on synchonization, interesting formation patterns, and overall performance quality in the group portion of team dances. I’d say Kym is an asset as well – she’s been on a team with Derek twice before (one of those times was another team tango), and when she hasn’t been on a team with him, she’s managed to tie once, and the 1 team dance she lost was not really all that bad, IMO. I don’t really know if Chelsie is battle-tested enough to say whether she’s good in the team dance or not – but I don’t get the impression that she is one to make waves, so she will probably be very cooperative and easy to get along with. My only concern is Mark – he seemed rather volatile in the team dance rehearsals in season 12, and seems to have a penchant for very flashy, high-energy, in-your-face choreo…which doesn’ t always translate well in the team dances. I’m hoping that he lets Derek take the lead on the group choreography, and really focuses on giving Katherine some good, solid solo choreography this week.
Team Paso: While I think they don’t have quite the same edge that Team Katherine does, I don’t think they’re super weak, either. Both Cheryl & Maks have been on teams with Derek before, so they’ve probably at least picked up a few tricks and strategies – I would say Maks is probably the stronger choreographer, judging from what I’ve seen him do in other team dances and pro dances. The big question mark here is Peta – we just don’t know how she’s going to fare, since this will be her first team dance. I doubt she’s going to suck at it (I don’t think anyone has really sucked at it – except maybe the unfortunate souls in the team mambo in season 8…), but it may take her a little longer to really get a feel for how the team dances work and what to do for Donald’s solo. I think she’s probably going to rely on Cheryl & Maks for the group choreo, and isn’t likely to make any sort of big fuss, since she’s the new kid on the block.
Who has the edge in pro experience? I’ve got to give this one to Team Tango – they’ve got the only undefeated pro, and each of the other pros has been in at least 2 team dances.
Number of Couples
We really only have one precedent for this, and that was the team dances of season 9 – and oddly enough, they were the same two dance styles the teams have this week: tango & paso doble. Team Tango (Donny & Kym, Joanna & Derek, and Kelly & Louis) basically mopped the floor with Team Paso (Mya & Dmitry, Aaron & Karina, Michael & Anna D., and Mark & Anna), with a score of 28-24. One possible explanation illustrated in the team paso rehearsal video? More people = more opinions = more drama:
And I kind of loved Louis’ explanation of why 3 couples were better than 4: “less egos”. 🙂
From a personal standpoint of being on formation teams myself, I also find that the more couples you have to stay in sync with, the harder it is to stay in sync. One couple out of sync in a group of 3 is likely not going to be as noticeable as one couple out of sync in a group of 4. Less opportunity for visual repetition = less opportunity to notice errors. There’s also the issue of spacing – it’s easier to give a little more wiggle room when you’ve only got 3 couples sharing a dance floor than when you have 4. While you could be just fine stepping a bit too far to the left on a team of 3 couples, you could be bumping into a teammate if you’ve got 4 couples…and you might be ok doing a dramatic arm flourish on a team of 3, but you could poke a teammate’s eye out if there are 4 of you sharing the floor. The more people out on the floor together = the more planning and practice it takes to pull off a good performance.
Who’s got the edge in number of couples? Team Paso, no doubt – far easier to work with 3 couples on the floor at a time, than 4.
Dance Style
So which is the better dance to have for the team dance: paso doble or tango? I wish there were an easy & straightforward answer to this 😛 I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and similarities between both. So first, why don’t we look at historical data?
Season 7: Team Paso beat Team Cha-Cha, 29-20
Season 8: Team Tango beat Team Mambo, 28-25
Season 9: Team Tango beat Team Paso, 28-24
Season 13: Team Paso beat Team Tango, 26-24
There have only been 4 seasons total where either dance was used as a team dance, and only 2 seasons where those particular dances were pitted against one another…and in those seasons, team paso one once, and team tango won once. And if you take the average score for a team paso (26.33) and the average score for a team tango (26.66) – team tango only has a slight edge. So I’d say that, on paper, one dance isn’t necessarily better than the other. However, I do think that tango can be a bit more limiting, as the couples have to stay in hold the whole time (or at least most of the time), while those who are doing paso have the freedom to go in & out of hold and do open work. That’s kind of a double-edged sword itself, though – those doing tango don’t have to worry about coming up with creative ways to go in & out of hold, while those doing paso may get called out on having sloppy transitions and too much open work. I’d say the timing of paso doble is easier for the celebs to pick up, but unless you add some syncopations or complex choreography, paso can run the risk of looking a bit boring.
Who has the edge in dance style? I’d say they’re about equal, I’m gonna give just a TINY edge to Team Tango, as the tango seems like it may end up being slightly better suited to the team dance.
Celeb Dance Experience
Of the celebs on each team, only two on each team have already done the dance they’re doing as their team dance – Jaleel & Maria have both already done tango, and Melissa & Donald have both already done paso doble. In addition, Roshon has Argentine tango as his individual dance this week, so he may be able to draw some parallels there. Will it give them an edge? Possibly – it may save those particular couples a bit of time learning the basics of each dance, and they may recall a few steps from their previous routines that they can reuse for their team dance. But I don’t think it will be a HUGE advantage for anyone, as they will still have to help bring their teammates who haven’t yet done paso or tango up to speed. I think you have to remember that the entire team gets one score – one couple in particular may just totally knock their team dance out of the park, but odds are it’s not going to matter much if another team member totally bungles their portion. The judges are going to be scoring the teams as a whole (or, at least they SHOULD be scoring the teams as a whole!), so one person having previous experience & doing well is likely going to have a minimal effect.
As for who the “good” dancers are – obviously Katherine & William are frontrunners, with Jaleel nipping at their heels now; Donald & Maria seem to comprise the next tier of dance skills, and Roshon & Melissa seem to be the two weakest dancers left – and I really onlythink Roshon is there because the judges don’t particularly care for him, rather than any actual weaknesses as a dancer. I think the talent has been spread pretty evenly over both teams, and no one really has any dead weight to carry around, ability-wise; I might give a slight edge to Team Tango, for the simple reason that they have golden girl Katherine on their side.
Who has the edge in celeb dance experience? No one, really – both teams have experienced and inexperienced members, and they’re both going to have to work to get everyone on the same level.
Other Random & Miscellaneous Factors
This is the section where I rattle off any other random observations that could come into play, but aren’t necessarily a scientifically quantifiable factor 🙂 Things that are a bit more…subjective, if you will.
*I think we’ve seen that Katherine gets, by far, the greatest amount of love from the judges. They seem very reluctant to critique her negatively, and have a tendency to “fluff” her scores a bit. Not saying Katherine’s not a good dancer (she is), but I daresay the judges might be a bit more willing to forgive any mistakes she makes…and since Katherine’s whole team gets the same team dance score she does, her teammates might benefit from this “fluffing”.
*Conversely, Roshon seems to be the judges’ whipping boy this season – and they seem to just LOVE pointing out any mistakes he makes. If he messes up, will they risk putting Katherine in jeopardy by docking points from the team dance?
*Bruno really, really loves William, regardless of how he dances – is he going to whip out the 10 paddle for him, even if his team dance is pretty weak?
*Maria is still somewhat injured, and we’re not sure of the status of Maks’ foot…is this going to hinder them in any way? William is also claiming to be injured, although we haven’t really seen any solid evidence of that. Somebody dig up an MRI or x-ray and then we’ll talk. 😉
*Since it’s Classical Week, I’m pretty skeptical about the music they’re giving the teams – one or both of them could end up with a piece of music that doesn’t really fit their dance well at all. Derek mentioned in one of the red carpet interviews that he & Maria were given a piece of music that was “all wrong” for their individual dance this week – what’s to say they won’t pick equally as sucktastic music for the team dances? 🙁
Court’s overall take: I think it’s probably Team Tango’s to lose, given Derek’s track record in the team dances and the overall level of talent and experience on their team – but I think it will probably be a pretty close fight between them & Team Paso. Likely no more than a 2-3 point difference between them – and I doubt that will be enough to ensure anyone safety from elimination. I wouldn’t be surprised if the person sent home is someone from the winning team. It’s happened before…just ask Pam Anderson.
So who do you guys think will win the team dance?
Who’s Got the Edge in the Team Dances? i will speak only from the pros perspective…simple….who ever has Derek… i don’t say that because i adore the man…it is the only pro who never lost a team dance….he has the vision and the skills to make a choreo that will bring them the win…not to mention he loves the Tango…of course he won Team Paso too..ok..trying to move away..finally Mark is on the right side..Derek’s side 😀 yay!! this will be his first team win! i also am glad Chelsie is there on their team..and of course Kym..who i think is the second strongest choreographer after Derek..so…thinking logical Team Tango can not lose…
It will be an interesting show on Monday, that’s for sure. Just read Maks’ blog, and he’s been cleared to dance after the MRI on his ankle…Val is available for back-up, so the show will go on. 🙂
Thanks for the update, auntie – I never did hear what the outcome of the MRI was. Good to hear he’ll be dancing…I think he’s probably the strongest choreographer on Team Paso.
Anyone know if Team Paso has tweeted anything about rehearsing, or tweeted any pictures? They just have been kinda quiet compared to Team Tango, who seemed to be having a tweetfest the other night! I haven’t been on Twitter much, so I haven’t been the best observer…*sheepish face*
Thanks for the info!!
Normally I would say they would tie because although i think the better dancers and choreographers are on team tango, the tango is a harder dance to make exciting, and with that extra person, runs the possibility of being pretty long and boring.
Also when william, donald, and maks come out with their shirts off- carrie ann and bruno wont even be looking at the actual dancing
so one part of me says tie but the other part of me says these teams are set up too precariously for there to be a tie.
team paso : seems to be the fanbase dominators. i honestly dont think donald or william will ever see a bottom two and for melissa to avoid the bottom two for so long…she gotta be doing some damage voting wise
team tango: seems to be filled with people that may need protection. Yes katherine has been fluffed by the judges, but to a not much smaller extent maria has too. i actually like maria and wouldnt mind if she took the place of a couple of people i will not name in the finals, but with the exception of her rumba and maybe her tango, i think a lot of her dances recently have been scored about 3 points higher than the should have been. so im thinking these two on the same team, along with jaleel- who seems to have found his way back in favor- maybe a way to cushion them.
so for that reason i gotta go with team tango
the roshon thing is the only one that just doesnt make sense, because the judges seem ready to throw this boy from the bus….but who knows
Unfortunately, for Team Paso, Willy will have to do some actual dancing, he can’t just stand there and shake it, or slide across the floor, or rub up against Cheryl. He will have to hold his own with other couples, could be interesting, or a trainwreck. Finally, we just might see what actual dancing skills he has, because up to this point, I haven’t seen much. Kind of surprised, that he was rated above Donald and Jaleel. 🙂
Team Tango season 9 was one of my all-time favorites. Love it. Derek is the bomb when it comes to Team Dances. I expect that Team Tango will win again this season.
I really like how the teams are so evenly matched. It should make things very interesting.
They also made it really easy for me to know who to root for since I’m not a big fan of any of Team Paso teams. But they will have 3 naked hunks doing the dramatic Paso as opposed to 4 diverse couples (looks and dance style wise) doing a more boring dance. Good thing they have Derek on their side.
They will be my favorites but I actually think Team Paso may take it.
Great analysis, as always, Court. Thanks. This one is tough to call (and I hope both teams dance well), but I think I’ll go out on a limb for Team Tango.
* I’m glad they gave Tango to the 4-couple team. Yes, it’s less “flashy” than Paso but they’re less likely to take out someone’s eye with a stray arm, and they’ll be in close hold which will give them more room to create patterns without bumping into each other.
* My biggest concern is they have Mr. Ego-maniac Jaleel. I’m sure he feels he’s just as good a choreographer as Derek and I don’t see “team player” anywhere on his DWTS resume.
* My other worry is the 3 shirtless “hunks” on Team Paso. Yo (#4) nailed it — CAI and Bruno’s female parts will have them reaching for their 10 paddles as soon as they get a look at those abs 🙄
You’re welcome Courtney.
Cidra….LOL at CAI and Bruno’s lady parts…:)
I’d say Team Paso. Having seen Donald’s Paso and William’s AT and Rumba, and Paso Doble being a man’s dance, I’d say we have the right participants for this team. They don’t need to perform the dance shirtless. The only weak link in this team effort is Melissa but with With Cheryl and Peta, she’ll come out strong.
What makes William such a great part of this team, he’s shown he can show that ‘fire’ when asked … and with Mak’s mentoring, the guys will be shown how to act their parts. All three have huge egos and that will serve them well in this dance. By the way, I do admire Derek’s talent and skill but he has yet along with Mark to show that he can make a champion with a complete novice _ got lucky with Brooke Burke-Charvet but he was poised to win with Nicole and Jennifer.
Based on the way these judges award scores, I’d say that they will try to give a ‘tie’ to protect their favored contestants. So far, I’d say they really, really like Katherine and they like Derek (despite that awkward horizontal position and kiss on the floor, they did not find it ‘raunchy’ … but William’s, they deemed it too ‘raunchy’…) so it is a given that even if they don’t do well, they’ll earn the score to keep their favorites competitive, score-wise. I will not vote … I will just try to enjoy the show. I will not be upset if Melissa wins this competition … it’s not a real dancing competition, anyway. I’d rather have lots of laughs than worry about whether the contestant is good or not. Heck, my choice for the final 3 is Roshon, Melissa, and Maria with either Melissa or Roshon winning, ;).
Not sure where to put this (assuming it hasn’t already been posted), but Mario Lopez claims that next season’s DWTS will be an all-star season and that he has been asked to be one of the all-stars. Here’s the link to a very brief article:
http://theclicker.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/25/11395484-all-stars-season-reportedly-coming-for-dancing-with-the-stars
Oh how cute…yet another person peddling the “Derek only gets good partners” bull. Brooke was a complete novice, bebingc – so for you to write his win with her off is just foolish. And just be thankful that Heidi isn’t around right now – she’s debunked this silly argument countless times.
Sandra, Vogue already posted about this yesterday.
Correction, bebingc – they found William & Cheryl’s ENTIRE ROUTINE raunchy. I don’t recall anyone zeroing in on that particular part.
Team Tango, Yes. So glad bad boy Maksim is not on this team, don’t like the way he talks to his celeb partners past and present. Go Team Tango!
Well Elara, I think Courtney might have had a point when she mentioned that despite Mark and Derek being best bros, there might be a bit of a clash between the two. Both have been kind of the “leader” of the team dances regardless of who picked the teams. I think Team Tango might have the more drama filled video, for sure, but…I can’t tell which team will be better for two reasons: 1) It’s Classical Night. I see classical music (Let me make this very clear: the MUSIC) working to the advantage of Paso over Tango, but again there’s Derek. And 2) I think both teams are pretty balanced so I can’t really tell which one will be the better team.
You mean you think Cheryl voicing “yes” in (fake?) ecstasy and otherwise dancing like she’s auditioning for a part in an adult show raunchy? You’re such a prude Courtney.
@Court (#12) – I’m relieved PH isn’t around right now. With the pain of her Achilles injury already fraying her nerves (I know I’d be a real beotch, if it was me), she might have lost it and gone looking for her really big can of whup-a** 😛
If you ask my co-bloggers, I am perhaps the least prudish of the Pure writers…and a big fan of adult films, I might add 😉 It wasn’t the raunch by itself that I didn’t like – it was the preponderance of raunch coupled with an overall lack of rumba. I can tolerate a bit of trashiness, as long as there’s enough legit dance steps to go with it – but raunch on its own? Not a rumba. And I feel like we’ve gotten nonstop raunch since week one – with the exception of Willy’s quickstep & jive. I’m over-raunched. Maybe I need an uber-innocent, polka-dot spattered kiddie jive from Mark to cleanse my palate 😛
# bebingc — i had this talk so many times it is disgusting me…you can not come here and say you respect Derek talent but he got lucky with Brooke and was poised to win with Nicole and Jennifer…pleeeasee… really..Derek made a dancer out of every partner he had…he made a dancer out of a woman who was so insecure he couldn’t see herself in the mirror..although she was and still is stunning, he made a dancer & a friend out of a former convict prison, he made a dancer out of a model who didn’t knew how to stay up straight, he made a dancer out of a woman who didn’t how to walk in heels…and he made a model and a dancer out of a 43 yo overweight mother…the only ringer he had was Nicole … go and read all the posts made here before erasing with words the work of Derek..
I needed a good laugh! Yet another reason why I love puredwts !!! 😛
So Courtney, Did I read that correctly above… Katherine and William, are frontrunners based on their dancing, and along with Jaleel are technically better than Donald and Maria? 🙂 You are more of an expert than I am…
In this case, I took into account how the judges are likely to perceive the two of them – I actually think Jaleel’s better than William, and Donald’s catching up fast. Katherine is indeed a good dancer…but she needs to work on showmanship.
Court, I like Derek _ a fellow Utahn and LDS (I don’t know if he’s an LDS) but the fact is he won with 2 people who could be considered ‘ringers’. Nicole does not deny that she is a dancer _ ” Scherzinger (who is of Hawaiian, Russian, and Filipino descent) went to a performing arts high school and, following graduation, enrolled at Wright State University in Dayton, OH. Majoring in theater arts and minoring in dance,”… And it is also a fact that Jennifer Grey, “an alumna of the Dalton School, a private school in Manhattan where she studied dance and acting.” As regards Emmitt Smith and Drew Laschey, where can you find reports that the two studied dance? Honestly, we don’t have to debunk anything …. facts are facts. I like Derek a lot … but I am not blind. I wish he had Katherine this season because she clearly is so talented and I want to see what a ‘Derek’ can do with that kind of talent. Mark is OK but I prefer Derek’s work.
Go Team Tango 🙂
I feel they will win it, hope there won’t be a tie.
Team Paso only has Cheryl since Peta is new and Maks never even comes in with a solo part with his partners, which is ridiculous season after season.
Always look forward to the Team Dances
Love this post so much Court! Thanks and I voted for Team Tango. I think it will be a close call for sure.
Court – I LOVE these types of posts!!! 😀 They always teach me something. It helps me to understand, and enjoy, DWTS even more! I have to admit, I voted “too close to call”, but that’s only because there’s SOMEBODY (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) on Team Tango that I want to go home… 🙂
Loved the article but it comes down to one question only, where is William? That’s two tens from Carrie Ann and Bruno. Team Tango don’t stand a chance.
Mike (post #28), don’t forget the two 10s from the same judges for Katherine. Judge Len has never said a bad thing about her so that’s a real plus. Based on the scoring pattern, Team Paso doesn’t stand a chance. Whatever is the result, I just want great performances from these teams.
Bebinc, your “facts” are highly twisted and skewed…you republican? 🙂
Court…I’m not wasting any more time, I’m just calling DUMBASS on this one. 🙂
Why are you guys flip out when someone says something negative about Derek? And that wasn’t even negative. Its just an opinion. Not all of need to love derek and find him the best pro ever, right? I think you should be open to different opinions. yes, Nicole and Jennifer was gonna to win this or that way. anyone can see that. i also think the same about donny osmond. it doesn’t disturb me that sometimes there are contestants much more famous than the others, or had a dance training before. im totally fine with that. mya definitely had training before, and she was my fave-and so nicole. derek is talented yes, and i especially liked him in season 5 and with joanna. yes he improves his partner’s dance skills. but not everyone would think like that. i like the site but i just can’t stand it when someone(specially, the writers) makes a comment which is biased. like now, i think you should think twice before calling a commentor “foolish” and his/her opinion “silly arguements”.
” Nicole and Jennifer was gonna to win this or that way.”
uuhhh…..what? Pop stars usually don’t win, except for Drew Lachey. Mel B, Joey Fatone, Lance Bass, Aaron Carter. And Nicole had Evan Lysacek who just won an Olympic gold medal in figure skating as a competitor. Jennifer I sort of agree because she’s quite a fanbase ringer, but she has screws in her spine. So it was all Derek’s skill that she danced so flawlessly and so beautifully. AND reached the finals. She could’ve withdrawn any time if her pro wasn’t taking care of her well enough.
Regarding team dances: I say Derek will win. But Roshon is on Team Paso and William is on the other side. Given how the judges have slammed Roshon mercilessly, and their always propping up William, it is very likely that they’re gonna score Team Paso lower. To protect Katherine they can just inflate her individual score.
@Court:
In the “Celeb Dance Experience” segment, I think you forgot to mention that Katherine had previously done the Argentine Tango. While it’s a whole other beast than the traditional Tango, it gives her an advantage, since she doesn’t need to learn the steps from scratch, like Roshon.
And since the team dance is Tango and not AT, I also think that it’s an advantage for Roshon, as they aren’t actually allowed to do lifts in the routine, which could admittedly have been problematic for someone with such a slender body type.
I admit that I am blind when it comes to spotting lifts. Where was the lift in Season 9 Team Tango that CA deducted a point for?
@Wiwin
I think you’re mixing up who’s on which team
First off, craft, not your place to comment on how anyone else posts – if you can’t resist, you won’t be posting here long. Secondly, I stand by what I said about bebingc saying that Derek “just got lucky” with Brooke – Brooke was an untrained novice, the exact type of person that bebingc was claiming that Derek had never had. I think it was foolish of her to even bring Brooke up, as she basically contradicted herself. And finally, craft, you need to make the distinction between “flipping out” and defending one’s own opinion. I could give a rat’s ass if someone doesn’t like Derek. But if you’re gonna come in and share your opinions, be prepared for me to share mine, and be prepared to have weak, unsubstantiated claims questioned. This ain’t the ABC boards…nobody gets to waltz in here, say something ridiculous, and then no one is allowed to question them or argue an opposing opinion. If that’s the kind of discussion you want, the ABC boards are thataway…
@wiwin – Roshon is definitely on team tango, and William is definitely on team paso – Maria tweeted a pic of Roshon in team dance rehearsal with she & Katherine, and Cheryl tweeted that she & William are on team paso.
@sasa – I believe it is part of the solo with Donny and Kym when Donny lifts her off the ground.
Actually, Craft (and I’m not deleting you for talking about our opinions instead of your own like I normally would), we have had this particular discussion ten thousand times. And it wasn’t presented as “opinion” it was presented as fact. As a scientist, I object to that characterization by bebingc – it’s not fact at all.
As for the rest of it – again, stupid, tired, cliche discussion that people try to use again and again in order to put down Derek and elevate their fav (who likely has NEVER won this show) – I’m not even going to bother to argue about it anymore.
Now, you lecture us again on our posts and what we write and you will be deleted.
Craft & bebinc: The Derek-bashing is sooooooo tedious. He got lucky with Brooke and was poised to win wih Nicole and Jennifer? WTF? The man is a genius in choreography, dancing, musicianship, entertainment, and how to bring out the best performances in his partners, imho. People who bash his talent just make me roll my eyes and shake my head in utter amazament.
I agree DW! I think fans that have to bash Derek in such way are just jealous. I mean…whether you like him or not, how can someone not admit how brilliant he is at his craft? I bet if and when their fave pro wins, they wouldn’t like it if someone said they were just lucky, etc.. Sad.
Heh – thanks sasa, I forgot that Derek won with a team of Kelly, Joanna and a flu-ridden Donny. That’s a pretty good accomplishment. 🙂 The lift is at 4:05 in this video – shortly after the women attack Donny. It doesn’t really look like a lift, but it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey509teON_U
And look how small Derek looks compared to now. 🙂 He’s all growed up now…and nicely.
No, Sandy, the lift is when all three couples are dancing – I think most people wouldn’t really call it a lift, but both the feet come off the floor while the men are holding them up. This is CAI we’re talking about. 🙂
I am not even an avid Derek supporter (though I do like the guy) and I’m tired of the whole Derek gets the ringers argument, but to each his or her own I guess. I choose to mostly ignore it.
But, Heidi–isn’t Derek’s father a highly respected Republican? 😉
Yes, he is Violet….but I’ve never been a big koolaide drinker. Even argued with Derek’s dad on twitter. 🙂 I’m what some would call a “bad fan”. :::snicker:::
I’m not a big Derek fan but I think he’s a brilliant choreographer who knows how to play up his partner’s strengths and play down their weaknesses. And I think that’s something many of the other pros are missing.
I’ve always read people saying Maks recycles his choreography but I never really saw it until this season. In pretty much every dance he’s done with Melissa I’ve felt like I’m rewatching dances with Laila, MelB, Erin, Hope, etc.
Thanks Heidi, that’s one of the coolest moves in the dance. And all this time I thought it was Donny and Kym. Wow, that one went right over my head… 🙂
Well they won’t make that mistake again. Carrie Anne is just ridiculous with these lifts. Why don’t the other judges call them, then?
You can see by the shock on their faces, Sandy, that none of them thought of it as a lift either…but as soon as I saw it, I thought CAI would call it. She’s just too ridiculous.
Courtney thanks for posting this! It’s always interesting to see all the info and how it could she light on any possible outcome. I think that the team Derek is on (team tango right?) will likely win but I think it’s going to be close. Possibly a lot closer than some might think. Also I think it’s interesting that usually (not always though) someone from the losing team goes home but this dance duel certainly throws a rench into that idea. I wonder if we could be seeing a Pam Anderson 2.0 again? Oh and Courtney, Maks didn’t really discuss his MRI. His blog was very vague. He is able to dance on it but he’s not out of the woods. I guess we’ll see more on Monday’s show.
lOL Heidi.
As far as the team dances go, I think it’s going to be very intestesting. So many good comments here from people about strengths/weaknesses: 4 on a team vs. 3 on a team; Mark’s Derek complex; shirtless beefcakes on Team Paso…I honestly have no clue who will come out on top.
@Sandy, I think CAI is the 3 Stooges’ designated “lift caller”. Don’t know if that’s official or if the guys just give her that crumb since she’s not good for anything else (except crying and drooling over her favorite male celeb). Isn’t a lift supposed to only be a 1 point deduction? Since they all submit their scores before they give their critique, if they all called lifts a 1-point deduction would become a 2- or 3-point deduction.
To sasa and Courtney: Yes I made a mistake, sorry. I meant to say: I think Derek’s team will win and will have the more entertaining and better dance. Katherine, Roshon, and Jaleel are better dancers overall than William and Melissa, imo. But William, Donald, and Melissa’s team is very likely going to win because the judges are slamming Roshon and they can just insulate Katherine with her individual scores.
I am worried about team Katherine. No doubt our boy Derek can choreograph an amazing dance (group or otherwise) but I think the four versus three, Mark always overshining everybody else and a general weakness in Maria (I think her injuries and all the outside stuff she is doing at the same time are beginning to take a mental and physical toll).
I know he hasn’t lost one yet, but he hadn’t ever been tapped out of the dance marathons before #2 before, right?
And on the Derek gets ringer comments **sigh** you should just link them to your ringer post from a few months ago – that pretty much put that arguement to rest.
New to this so I hope I’m going to say the right things, which are based mostly on Youtube videos I watched since this is the first time I’m following the show closely… I find it sad when people think that Nicole and Jennifer were “sure wins”, or when people say that Derek gets the best partners. It’s absolute disrespect to them (the partners), to the work that they put in. Having some background on dancing, I think, doesn’t make one a “sure win”. It’s also disrespect to Derek’s abilities. He works hard for the dances, he doesn’t win nor get 10’s or what have you by just snapping his fingers. This is true for all of the pros and the dancers, it’s just that he’s arguably one of the best, which translates into good results.
Also, it seems that anything can really happen during these 10 intense weeks, heck, Jennifer was injured like crazy, right? The fans’ votes also come into play, and I don’t think anyone can sure with the results, whether or not the star is a good dancer. So I don’t get how someone can be ‘poised to win’ or be a sure win…
Team Paso….. For no other reason other then they have two weak links……and Paso has one
#53Charo you said “I find it sad when people think that Nicole and Jennifer were “sure wins”, or when people say that Derek gets the best partners. It’s absolute disrespect to them (the partners), to the work that they put in”
Just curious- do you also think is disrespectful when people call Mark’s win with Kristi a sure thing? Or even Kym’s win with Donny?
I hope they get the violinist from Season 12 Classical week, David Garrett! He was incredible! He’s sexy too!!
Again, this is going to be a tough one to call. I’ll give the edge to Team Tango. Derek has proven that he knows what it takes to win the group dances. I am really happy to see him & Mark on the same team for a change. They have got to bring it in this Tango. Roshon is like a sponge and very willing to learn! He has some great male pros to help him with this routine.
Everyone seems to think Team Paso will play up on the sexy card, they probably will! Team Tango is pretty hot too and all the couples in Team Tango seem to have pretty strong “natural” chemistry with their partners which translates well on the dance floor! They know how to bring the heat too but I think they’ll execute their movements better than Team Paso!-JMO
Very excited about Monday night performances. I hope Team Tango does something special in the opening for the celebrities. The pros have really got to be creative with this routine but they are all pretty fantastic and I believe they will choreograph something amazing for Team Tango!!
I think Team Tango will take it because 1) They have Derek, 2) Tango is mostly in hold. Didn’t they have Team Tango vs. Team Paso in season 9 and Team Paso looked very sloppy and out of sync compared to Team Tango (Donny, Joanna, & Kelly)?
It will be interesting to see how Derek & Mark will co-exist in this team dance considering Derek has won every time and Mark hasn’t won one yet. I think they can though. I think their biggest challenge will be having the 4 couples versus 3.
I think it will be close, but I have Team Tango winning this challenge.
Ayana, in theory, I think it is. It’s different to say that a couple has a bit of an advantage vs “sure win” or that winning is a given. The latter one is the one I think that’s disrespectful. But I wouldnt know because I really only watched all of Derek’s past dances, rehearsals, etc. on YouTube. Haven’t watched any of Kristi’s dances, and only saw one of Donny’s – the team dance…
# Ayana – i think it is disrespectful when people call anyone’s win luck or favoritism…it takes away a 13 weeks long work both for the star and the pro…nothing can prepare a star for this competition..even the most intensed trained athletes have problems keeping up with the training for DWTS..and after they win..comes someone and says…you were poised to win this..NO!! no one is!! if Nicole for example wouldn’t have put the work on in and just said..i am POISED to win…i don’t give a rats ass about the rehearsals…she would have been out in week 3… i don’t care what pro some one likes or dislikes… give them the credit for working their buts off for 13 weeks…
As has been said MANY times on this site – we don’t allow extended discussion of what you think we’re doing wrong – either us or other posters. Craft, I’ve told you this twice now. You can keep trying, but instead of just deleting three paragraph posts that explain how wrong Courtney and I are, we’ll just block you.
Ayana, you’re treading the line.
Heidi, thanks for the lift spotting. Unfortunately that sure was a lift even if it was brief and low to the ground.
This Derek controversy is SO old it’s really getting very annoying. Yes, he had some talented stars- so what, some other pros had just as many. The only thing I will grant is that Derek got lucky with not having a complete dud of Kate G. or Macy Gray proportions. There are some people that no pro can make into a dancer, fortunately they are rather few.
And I don’t think anyone’s win was a given. Even Kristi’s, Donny’s or Jennifer’s. I actually thought Jennifer wouldn’t win because many people (including myself) found her personality annoying and Kyle had such an opposite effect.
I guess fighting through injuries and still dancing well resonated with people on a dramatic level. I personally think Kyle would have won if he had a bigger fan base to start with because people who radiate positivity tend to have an edge in the competition.
If you look at the winners sheet you’ll see that apart from Jennifer and maybe Kelly Monaco (I’m not familiar with her so I don’t know) every other winner was the smiley, stay positive type personality.
And if Maks looked at the winners sheet he would maybe realize that keeping your star confident, happy and (as much as it’s possible) carefree is a huge part of a winning partnership.
SueB, I was just thinking this was a year of firsts for Derek. I hope it’s not also the first year he loses the team dance. If they want either Maria or Roshon out, however, that’s exactly what will happen.
Ayana, there was one or two people in the history of this show that was guaranteed to win and that was Kristi. That says NOTHING about Mark, it speaks to Kristi’s training as a skater and her massive fanbase – really I’ve written a series of posts on this subject and I can’t believe I’m even bothering again. But, she was truly the perfect alignment of training, talent and fanbase that coincided with DWTS demographic. Donny was also nearly perfect in alignment – again, I consider this to be pretty obvious to anyone who has watched this show for a long time. They are the only two.
Now, if you can’t see that discussion as different than saying “Derek only wins because he gets all the best dancers” or “Derek only won three times because they gave him all ringers” then there isn’t much point in discussing it.
Vikanyanna, you have NO idea how much it ticks me off when someone comes in here and thinks they’re being really, really clever and posts the same opinion under two different user names. I can SEE YOUR IP ADDRESS. Cut it out.
… and so it begins! We must have reached the half way point in the competition, cuz the imposters are coming out of the woodwork! 😉
I know, right?? People start to realize their favorite isn’t going to win and they start getting a bit crazy. 🙂
Sorry Heidi- I was just asking Charo specifically if it annoyed her when people said “sure win” about anyone not just Derek- I was honestly curious and didn’t think she was or that I said that she was doing anything wrong- I just wanted to know her opinion. I also was just trying to say disrespectful as in the general sense not just this board. I thought that was okay as long as I wasn’t attacking her and I’m sorry if it came across that way. I just thought it would be interesting to see her whole position on the subject. I’m not trying to to argue that anyone gets all the ringers or are destined to win from the beginning the season starts- I’ve read your Ringer posts and I understand them but since everyone still has their own opinions I just wanted to know hers since she mentioned it specifically.
@PH
Donny and Kristi both had a lot going for them but I think it should also be noted that they both seemed like nice, easygoing, humble people who had no problem respecting the pro’s authority. That’s where Mya went wrong. If they started bitching and messing with the choreography it wouldn’t be such an easy path for them at all.
True, Sasa…you also have to wonder if Kristie and Donny would have had to compete against Nicole or Jennifer, if they would have been such sure things – great dancer and cultural icon, respectively. I called it for Evan from before they danced, for a similar reason to Kristi (although I don’t think he has the fanbase she has) – but Evan had both Nicole and Erin to contend with. Donny had Mya, but she and Dmitry were just too quiet. I thought Shawn was a sure thing as well…but Gilles was a great surprise and almost took it away from her. Frankly, I think that one came down to a BAD freestyle.
Do you think Kristi could have won with Tony?
I have an opinion that she couldn’t have but I’m a relatively new dwts fan and I just see Tony as unable to bring it. I even wonder if there are other pros who just couldn’t have gotten her there. Hmm
@Jess
It’s almost impossible to say but I would say: yes, I think Kristi could have also won with Tony.
If someone like Kristi (good dancer, big fan base, likable personality) is not enough to make Tony a winner then there is really no point in him being on DWTS. The fact is he never got a good dancer with a big fan base. So until he is put in the situation I prefer to think positively since there is no evidence to think negatively.
@PH – #30 – LAUGHED OUT LOUD! that made my morning. 🙂 thanks.
Trailer (and all of your other aliases), if you don’t like the way we run things, you are free to go somewhere else and please do, ok? You’ve worn out your welcome.
I see Jennifer as Donny as pretty much the same, actually. Had he had any formal dance training? I know Jennifer had very little, but I can’t remember Donny having much, either–I could be wrong though. On talent and fan base, I would give Jennifer an edge on talent and Donny a slight edge on fanbase–so if Donny were almost a sure thing, I think Jennifer was too, which has absolutely nothing to do with their partners. I actually think Jennifer was right up there with Kristi in terms of the perfect storm as far as winning the show. She may not have had as much training as Kristi, but she was Jennifer Grey. From the moment she was announced, I never once thought she WOULDN’T win.
Can there be a tie in the team dance? Then the judges crazy individual scores would have all the influence – and cover for the fact that their favs are on different teams…
@SueB, I think there was a tie in season 12, right? It should say so in Courtney’s post, I think she put all the pro’s records there and that would show it.
@SueB – Yes, and it happened in season 12…both teams got a score of 30/40. But with all the padding of Katherine’s score they were doing last week, I highly doubt they would have both teams tie – that just makes the margins even closer between points, which is dangerous if someone is toeing the line between safety and danger…especially if that person isn’t getting enough votes. Someone like Katherine, I’m thinking.
Someone mentioned earlier that they might trash team tango and then “insulate” Katherine with her individual score. Given her highly inflated scores last week, I have to wonder if she’s just not getting the votes, and they’re thus having to really keep her afloat with crazy high scores. If that’s the case, I doubt they’d run the risk of ripping team tango apart this week and low-balling them – if they’re protecting Katherine, they’re gonna give her every point they can. I think the far more likely scenario is team paso getting low-balled, as well as Melissa’s individual dance, in hopes of driving her into the bottom 2…and I’m thinking they might try to use Roshon again, and lowball his individual score, so that they can count on him to fall into the bottom 2 and bump Melissa out of the duel. I think Sally had a good theory – that they deliberately tried to force Roshon into the bottom 2 last week in the hope that he would easily be able to beat a weaker dancer. I do get the feeling now that they’re kinda using him, which sucks.
I cant wait to see freestyles at the finale :). I have always been under the impression that it has a lot of weight in guaranteeing a win or not(at dwts) comparing to other shows like striclty come dancing(England);meaning you could have been great throughout the competition but if you messed it up at the finale it can cost you a win.
Thats where I think that Cheryl got it wrong for Gilles and Maks with Mel B;imo they didnt choreographed to the best ability of their celebs and thats why they lost. It will be interesting to see what happens this year ;).
And the Derek debate getting ringers … is getting old. Put it objectively ,this guy is extremely talented, a very good teacher and an excellent choreographer;) :). I am not necessarily a fan but he clearly has the most wins for a reason and its not necessarily because he has ringers ;).
I really think that Maks attitude (whether its scripted or not) sometimes put his partners at a disadvantage (even though I like him).
Exciting week coming up:)! Cant wait to see the dances 🙂
I know that having the most couples in a dance can be a disadvantage but I think that team Tango is going to take this one:they have 3 of the best choreographers of the show imo(Derek,Mark,Kim) +Derek has a very good record;).
Does anyone know if it is double elimination this week? Or do you think they wait to next week or the “semis”?
I also wondering over Katherines samba: how much samba context did she had? Don´t get me wrong, I like K and think she is a good dancer but when I looked at the dance I thought it was a cha-cha as Jaleel danced. Are samba and cha-cha steps nearly the same or is samba more free to choreograph?
@Violet, I remember reading that Donnie took ballroom lessons the year before he was on the show to get ready. He acknowledged it before the season started too – smart! He had campaigned for awhile to get on because he wanted to do better than his sister, Maria. So he had dance experience, a huge fan base, and years of performance experience – now that is the perfect storm! 🙂
@Courtney – If they are using Roshon as their axe-man, I really wish they would give the kid a break and give that job to someone else this week. poor guy. It’s hard enough to learn 3 dances in 5 days without the added headcase they are handing him.
It was notable how many of the other pros came out in interviews and stated that they thought the scoring was unfair for Roshon last week, so hopefully that will help with his confidence. I think it doesn’t hurt that they have team week. I’m looking for Derek to help him out a bit. If anyone can, he can.
@Susanne – Double elim will be in week 8, per Carrie Ann’s twitter. This week will be the last duel and a single elimination – then it’s back to the viewers deciding in week 8…and two couples will get axed.
@Beka – I agree, and I think it sucks that poor Roshon has become the judges’ dance duel Axe Man. I think they probably concocted this scheme after seeing him fall into the bottom 2 with Sherri in week 4 – they knew he was already not getting the votes, but knew he was still a good dancer, and saw the opportunity to use that to their advantage. If they’re looking to oust weaker dancers, what better way than to pit them against a far superior opponent in the dance duel? And had it not been for them being so unusually tough in scoring & critiquing him this past week, I probably wouldn’t have thought much of it, had he dropped into the bottom 2 – he had already been there before, so it likely wouldn’t send up any red flags. But it all seemed a bit too…engineered to me. I think they may have also played a bit of the same game with Jaleel in week 5 – lowballed his score a little bit (upon watching it again, I do think he was underscored on his samba), maybe knowing that he wasn’t getting as many votes, and knowing that he could easily oust Gavin in the dance duel. Everything just feels so manipulated this season…and I think Roshon is probably under a tremendous amont of pressure. I gave him all of my votes last week, and I’m already creating more accounts to vote with next week…if for nothing else, than to try and counteract the manipulation a bit. But let’s put it this way: I would not be shocked AT ALL if he ended up in the bottom 2 again this week…and if he ended up there with Melissa.
Here’s an idea….why don’t the judges (using the term loosly) just give the appropriate score to the dance they are currenty seeing, instead of trying to manipulate two or three steps ahead? Just pisses me off. However, given their schitzophrenic tendencies, it will probably not be Roshon chosen as the sacrificial lamb this time. I predict Jaleel. The given is that Melissa is a goner…..I take no pleasure in saying that..( Sorry…no spell-check)
@Meggie–you’re right, I do remember reading that now. I think he and Jennifer are still about tied, and Kristi edges them out by a little bit as far as the “perfect” contestant, pros aside. Nicole–yes, she was an excellent dancer, and I would put her in the category of biggest experience ringer ever with Mya BUT-girl had a serious uphill battle with the voters. I think she was probably next to unknown with the general DWTS demographic.
@Courtney–I agree with everything you’re saying, RE: Roshon, and it really upsets me the show might be doing this to him. I think he’s fantastic, and like you, I’m giving he and Chelsie all my votes. I’m so scared all this manipulation to get him into the bottom two to maybe use him to beat weaker dancers is going to get Roshon eliminated immediately after, b/c the general audience will see him as not good enough, i.e. if he keeps falling into the bottom two, why should they vote for him? Sigh.
If Roshon and Chelsie go all my votes will go to Donald and Peta.
Back then, yes, I think Tony could have won with Kristi. Now?? Not so sure. You don’t have to have a big fanbase to win. Brooke Burke is one who had no dance experience and a smaller fanbase than someone like Audrina, and certainly a smaller fanbase than those she beat out. Nicole certainly had a smaller fan base than either Evan or Erin – Erin being heavily in the news recent to her season and Evan a very recent Olympic Gold Medalist. JR had probably no fanbase going in – but his story was so fabulous that you knew he would GET a fanbase, plus he was so extremely personable. Shawn only beat the unknown Gilles by less than one percent – and to this day I think he could have beaten her if not for a bad freestyle.
Donny took a good bit of ballroom lessons right before DWTS – and he admitted it openly on one of the entertainment shows before someone told him to shut up. 🙂 He claimed it was for his Vegas show that he had to take a lot of lessons. Plus, he’d been doing minor choreography with his sister and brothers since he was a child.
As for Jennifer – she’s a huge name with a lot of fans, and I called her a fanbase ringer in my series. HOWEVER, she was also extremely limited in what she could do, due to serious neck injuries and surgeries. That pretty much cancels out any sort of “sure thing” aura about her. Hell, she had to have a couple surgeries AFTER being on the show and Derek took great pains to make sure she didn’t get hurt.
This is the mistake people make all the time – confusing “talent” with “training”. Brooke Burke had tons of “talent” but never had any training.
@Heidi–I get what you’re saying, with the surgeries and whatnot, but I still thought Jennifer was a sure thing before the season. I’m not saying it’s a fact, just that it was how I felt at the time and how I still feel.
I disagree that Brooke had talent–I’m of the opinion that Brooke got lucky with her win. And I feel the same regarding Emmitt, Helio and Hines. I didn’t think any of the four of them were great dancers. But again–that’s just my opinion.
@PH
I don’t think you need to have a big fan base to win. I just like to believe that Tony would get inspired again by having someone as Kristi who ticks all the boxes. He is probably not very optimistic given his bad track record If anything would return optimism it would be a fan favorite with some ability.
Wondering…..does anyone think that Melissa would still be on if she was partnered with Tony? Just curious.
Well, Violet, if Derek had dropped her even once, she would have been out. She was almost out on the final night. Hence – not a sure thing at all. Not logically.
Lucky?? That’s pretty damn insulting. From where I was she and Derek worked very hard for you or anyone to just discount it as luck. Pretty rude. And people wonder why these discussions work my last nerve.
I didn’t mean they didn’t work hard-maybe I came across that way, but it really wasn’t what I meant. I think everyone who participates in the show works hard. I meant that I didn’t think she (or the rest I named) were extremely talented, dance wise, and they were lucky because the best actual dancer (IMO) didn’t win their season, which would be, only in my opinion: season 3: Mario, season 5: Mel B, season 7: Lance, season 12: Chelsea. I only meant those winners got lucky because of things that happened in those seasons that could have possible played into the others not winning.
As for Jennifer, well, if anybody dropped anybody one time they could possibly be out. Kym’s neck injury speaks to that, I think. And if you want to think I am not logical, that’s okay with me. I see it the way I see it, just like everyone else.
Come on now, Violet, you have to know that dropping Jennifer Grey is not just like dropping anyone else, including Kym. Are you seriously going to tell me that Jennifer had no more challenges than anyone else that’s participated? That she’s exactly the same as Donny?? Really?? So, having screws in her neck is no different than having no screws in your neck?
I never said she didn’t have challenges. All I said about Jennifer was that I thought from day one that she would win. That’s it. I never claimed it to be a fact, only that it was my opinion.
When I said that about Kym, I was not thinking about the screws in Jennifer’s neck. I was just making a general statement that all of the couples have to be careful, because one wrong move can take ANYBODY out. Of course Jennifer having screws in her neck makes her more fragile than someone who doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean I couldn’t think she would win from day one. And it was in that mindset that I compared her to Donny, not anything to do with her surgeries. I compared them on the basis of somebody I thought from the beginning would win. That is it.
Courtney (#82) – Ditto on feeling that it’s manipulated and engineered. As for the “Dance Duel”, hubby mentioned Tuesday night that the DWTS folks “have taken something that was supposed to be fun to watch, and turned it into a Bataan Death March complete with a rhythm section.”
Seems to be that DWTS is becoming more & more a scripted “reality show” and less & less a “dance competition”. Of course, it never really was completely & totally a dance competition… 🙁
Sherry, I don’t think so. I think Maks’s last three partners have gone as far as they have based on his fan base, especially in Season 12 combined with Kirstie’s fan base. But by the same token I question whether Ricki Lake would have gone as far as she did with another partner as well.
Like Donna’s saying, that’s kind of what I meant about if, say, Kristi could have won with a different partner. I think it’s a combination of the celebrity talent, experience, fan base, AND the skill of the pro. And I don’t think all the pros are equal in their ability to do an entertainment show. And I think the chemistry between the partners matters too. I tend to think Melissa wouldn’t still be on with Tony, and I agree that Ricki likely wouldn’t have made it as far with a different partner. JMO and I’m always learning so I’m completely able to admit I may be way wrong.
@ courtney I agree with everything u r saying.
think they are looking to do two things this week: protect katherine and bounce melissa
so i fully expect these things to happen…
1) team tango to beat team paso (suffices both of their goals)
2) have melissa go first (give her lukewarm but not horrible scores) and prob katherine last (10, 10, 10 on classical week -what a coincidence)
3) Roshon (their favorite sacrificial lamb) will get inexplicably low scores (im thinking same as melissa or only a point higher cuz they know he doest have the fanbase to compensate)
and voila – magic- duel of roshon and melissa
* my only hope is maybe they switch it up and make someone else their sacrificial lamb
p.s. i have a feeling all of this could potential back fire and we are gonna wind up with a duel between two of these three : roshon/jaleel/maria 🙁
I have to vent for a bit. Man, how I hate conspiracy theories!
Most of you guys vote, don’t you? That means you believe your vote will be counted just like everybody else’s and that the total will be added to the judges marks. Why do you believe the votes are handled fairly if you at the same time believe in conspiracies? Wouldn’t it be easier to just make the results up than to instruct the judges who to mark higher?
The judges are human and have a difficult job which occasionally they completely mess up. They also have their personal favorites, if they admit it or not. I do think they are instructed that good dancers should get higher scores even if the bad dancers are visibly improving.
I haven’t yet seen any situation which I couldn’t explain with this reasoning.
I mean, what do I get if I start thinking they are setting everything up (for which there is almost no way of proving)? I get: this is against everything the show should be and I don’t wanna watch it anymore. I don’t want go there if I don’t have to.
And yes, I think there are some marketing games played with who they book in the first place and how they get presented to the public. But those are just extra curriculum games which have nothing to do with the core of the show.
Just IMO and sorry for the rant.
Sasa – I can offer one really good example of TPTB manipulation. Chelsie Kane, and WTA Cha-cha. I personally believe another example (which didn’t work), was the attempt to eject Ralph Macchio instead of Romeo, that same season. I think it’s got everything to do with the producers of the show attempting to bring new, younger viewers to DWTS – that directly increases the ad revenue the show generates.
As to the public voting totals, I don’t think it’s in TPTB’s best interest to completely toss them out – if they did, and that ever got out, it would be a *big* problem. And they need us to vote – otherwise, there would be no need for a Tuesday results show, since all of the scoring would be based off of judges scores alone. Not to mention that if we’re voting, we feel even more invested in the show…
I don’t have any proof, but as Court said, I can’t get over the feeling that we’re being manipulated *even moreso* than we used to be.
Oh sasa…where to begin…
1.) I completely disagree that the judges’ job is “difficult”. I don’t think it’s hard as someone with dance knowledge to look at one couple dancing for 1:30 and compare what they’re doing to an accepted standard and generate a numerical score. Real ballroom judges have it far harder than the 3 stooges we got stuck with – they usually get 1:30 to scan an entire dance floor full of couples, and then decide who they do and don’t want to call back. They don’t get to just spit out a score…they have to determine who they do and don’t think deserve to advance to the next round, and they have do it with only a few seconds of watching each couple dance, then mentally comparing them to determine who gets to come back and who isn’t…and more often than not, they get it right. Wish I could say the same for our 3 stooges.
2.) I believe that the votes can be handled completely fairly and there still can be funny business in other aspects of the show that can affect the final outcome. Why? Because legally, the show cannot tamper with the votes – why do you think they have them counted by an independent audit firm? Plus, from what I’ve heard from John about the law as it applies to reality competition shows, they could also get their asses sued off by one of the contestants if it ever came out that they tampered with the results of the voting…since the contestants sign a contract that spells out the rules of the show in black & white, any deviation from what is written in said contract could be considered breach of contract and grounds for prosecution. I think many of us tend to forget that, as “fluffy” as this tv show is, it’s still a serious matter for the stars involved…it’s a job. And with jobs come legalities.
3.) Continuing my last point, your question that “Wouldn’t it be easier to just make the results up than to instruct the judges who to mark higher?” basically answers itself – they can’t “make the results up”, so it’s entirely possible that they coach the judges on who to mark higher or lower. The judges, just like the stars, are on contract themselves – and it very well might be part of that contract that the judges may on occasion have to yield to the suggestions of TPTB.
4.) The marketing games that you claim “have nothing to do with the core of the show”? They absolutely affect the core of the show, when it gets to the point that legitimately good/popular dancers are being cast aside in favor of keeping less skilled/popular dancers that serve the show better from a marketing standpoint. Just ask Ralph Macchio.
For what it’s worth, I agree with those feeling even more manipulated than usual.
I’m seeing scores that we just wouldn’t have seen in previous seasons. Katherine is not better than Jennifer and Nicole, yet her scores were better, quicker. Donald isn’t worse than Donny, yet his scores are worse. They’re not commenting on things they always have, for certain contestants. How often did they take points off Nicole for lack of emotion? How often did they give Jennifer 8s because they said (wrongly) that she began at a higher level?
Carrie Ann even tweeted during Jennifer’s season that they judge based on experience and ability of each contestant – but not this year. They even made sure to mention Melissa R’s ballet experience in their judging of her that season, but Katherine has had more live dance experience than I think any other dancer ever on this show (I think… I may be missing a couple).
I don’t care, frankly, about the experience, if it’s taken into account, but this is the first time when I think it hasn’t been – and that is clear manipulation of results. It skews everything for everyone – raises the curve so that people like Donald, Melissa and Maria are left in the dust, when in other seasons I honestly don’t think at least one or two of them would be.
Please don’t take this as an attack on Katherine. I’m discussing how the show has portrayed her and how they’ve decided to use her for their own goals.
I haven’t mentioned William because I think they’re starting to turn on him a bit. We’ll see.
First off, I like Derek a lot so this is not a knock at him. But I get so sick of people saying that Jennifer Grey barely had any experience except her movie role. She is Joel freaking Grey’s daughter. She moved out of the gate like a woman that had been trained for her whole life – maybe not ballroom specifically, but to deny what she already came to the show with is just silly. I’m not lessening her win, and I’m not saying that she would have won with anyone – but she was certainly well-versed in the essence of dance. I don’t mind that they have people with varying levels of experience on the show – but like most people here, I hate revisionist history.
Also, I was totally coming here to post that I think Roshon was deliberately manipulated into that dance duel by the judges to oust Melissa or Gladys. This season definitely reeks of manipulation, more so than others. I’m so annoyed with how things are going – not even the outcome, cause I don’t vote or really care who wins – but I hate heavy handed fake crap. I won’t even watch the dance duel because I can’t bear to look at these poor people forced to dance off in what I feel is a horrible manipulation by the producers. I just fast forward to see who gets sent home (after watching all the great results show content like Stars of Dance, etc). I’m not done with the show, not by a long shot, but I’ve most certainly felt my interest waver with this manipulation. One of the reasons I liked DWTS over any other reality show is that despite some obvious fake made for television moments and overstated drama, it felt more REAL than any other reality show – at least the ones I have tried watching. The human stories and personalities that would shine through just really appealed to me – not to mention the dancing, of course. But now with TPTB being so heavyhanded with their puppet strings it is losing some of that luster that it once had for me. Believe me, I’m not pretending that the show was completely authentic, but it rang true more often than not – but not anymore.
Being Joel Grey’s daughter does it mean anything. Giving her exposure to the arts? But dance? Funny how being Joel Grey’s daughter makes her ringer or dancing for one dance in her twenties. Then competing when 50. But Katherine actually learned ballroom and is still young and fit at 30 gets less ringer backlash.
I am curious how Jaleel will interact with the rest of the group. Maria and Derek seem types who keep the group environment light so hopefully less drama. I remember video of Mark being tough in season 12 for team cha cha. Hopefully Mark is not taking the lead on team tango.
I think this season is like a combination of Brooke’s and Shawn’s seasons – the skill level is no higher than that, from where I sit. Katherine is a combination of Brooke and Shawn, William is the poor man’s Gilles (as you might recall, Gilles has some less than great dances, mainly due to injury), Donald is a technically better Warren, Jaleel is an arrogant smug version of Lance…really, I don’t believe that the talent is nearly as high as they’ve hyped it. I don’t think anyone on this seasons comes close to Nicole, Evan, Jennifer, Mya…or really even Mel B or Brandy or several others. Katherine is good, for sure – but her latin is SO vanilla and her ballroom is so chilly that it’s hard for me to get into. And oddly, I think she’s a cute and funny girl.
So….I guess Chaz is a great singer then, eh?? 🙂 By your logic…just sayin’. I’m sure she took dance in school, Fig – 30 years ago. THIRTY years ago. So what? Brandy took dance in school as well. As did probably far more women than we realize who have been on this show. But to call Jennifer and Brandy trained dancers just because they took dance in school is kinda like calling me a trained psychologist because I minored in it in college. I think calling her a trained dancer is the revisionist part. I don’t think anyone has denied she has the “essence of dance” or whatever you want to call it but that’s a far cry from being trained, which is what some people insist on around here.
Eh, Derek handled that whole drama with Maks and Hope pretty well last season so I don’t see any reason to think it would be different this time around. I’m still wondering how the Mark/Derek dynamic will play out. Derek has a pretty ingrained history (from what I’ve seen) of letting Mark have his way. And Derek himself has said he avoids confrontation. It could be….challenging. I think the only thing we can be sure of is that Derek will REFUSE to wear tights of any kind. 🙂
😯
Ewww…thank goodness for that. lolllll
He’s been pretty outspoken about a lot of Mark’s wardrobe choices, Vogue. 🙂 He even hated the Harry Potter hat. That’s the only reason I can be sure. 🙂
Trained psychologist equaling trained dancer? Come on, that is a ridiculous comparison She had taken dance for years and grew up in a household where it was a vital component to their lives, and developed those skills – musicality, dance/movement concepts, muscle memory, etc – that would aid her SIGNIFICANTLY even 30 years later. I distinctly remember a quote from Derek that people tossed about: “she played a dancer in a movie once, that doesn’t mean she’s a dancer any more than George Clooney is qualified to be a doctor” or something to that effect. But I think that was a misrepresentation of her experience – she had taken dance all the way through school. Chaz being a great singer isn’t the same thing, as he may or may not have gotten the talent but hasn’t pursued anything in that area, whereas Jennifer Grey professed her love for dance over and over again for decades. No, she did not pursue a career as a professional dancer. But she obviously had the aptitude to do it and I’m sure that wasn’t suddenly discovered when she was 50 years old and on DWTS.
Additionally, I never said Katherine lacked any further talent or experience, I never said anything denying that Brandy had some experience, NOR did I say that Jennifer was a ringer – in fact I specifically said that she may not have won without Derek because her personality was extremely grating when comparing her to other contestants that season. I was not negating Derek’s impact at all, so this is not ANY sort of argument attacking him. I was simply stating that I think that people undersell Jennifer Grey’s experience as a dancer. She did have other issues to overcome such as her age and injuries (lord did we hear about those incessantly) but she had far greater experience in dance than many people – even Derek, publicly – were willing to admit.
Whatever you say, fig. It’s not a ridiculous comparison at all – unless you are totally sold on your own version of events despite using watch words like “I think”. You think wrong. For someone who doesn’t care, you sure do get excited about it, don’t you?
No one said she didn’t have aptitude. Aptitude: : a natural or acquired capacity or ability. Emphasis on natural. Aptitude doesn’t have to be acquired through training or even experience. I don’t think anyone was even denying that she had taken dance in school. So, I’m not quite sure why you’re all worked up about it. The only part where you go wrong is in thinking that she somehow got talented in dance through osmosis – I mean, really, what else can you mean if you don’t mean training beyond that in school?? Was her dad teaching her moves every night after he got done on Broadway?? Wow. The only one revising history here is you, IMO.
PH, I agree with your comparisons. I still think season 10 had the best overall dance quality p. it just had train wreck number one Kate. But Evan, Erin, Nicole? Katherine is boring. She is polished but not memorable. I never felt compelled to rematch her dance like Donald, Maria or even Gavin this season. I am sure Katherine will finally get her perfect score this week. Shocker, on classical week!
You know, the thing is, I like Katherine.
She’s more than a bit milk, but I still like her.
Yet
because of all the hype and manipulations that are actually none of her doing, (although maybe some of Mark the Howler Monkey’s) I find myself mentally encouraging her to crash and burn. It’s is not a nice wish, and what that says about me isn’t all that great – but the overt manipulations make me want to see what would happen if there just wasn’t any way to protect her with over scoring…
my dream bottom 2 would be William and Katherine – just to see what that would bring. Hopefully, free Willy.
K. on a totally different note, I am going through some SERIOUS Cheesecake withdrawal. getting shaky, feverish, gibbering nonsense about sequence and spats…..Must..,Have…Cheesecake!
I thought I liked K.Jenkins singing a little b4 this stint on DWTS. But now that that is colored by deceptiveness and the extreme privilege of hearing her interviewed multiple times in fawning tones and her ultra-sweet responses, not only do I feel diabetic now but extremely turned off by anything she may have to offer to all of us crude commoners.
I hope like some of Derek’s other (great) personal changes, I hope he extends a hand, puts it on top of Markies head and says “Whoa” and really has a big hand in the Team Dance. And I hope they both do it to Roschon and Jaleel, just to remind them that team dances are not about “Me-time” but about smoothness and syncronicity.
Melissa, I agree with you about Season 10. Besides Erin, Evan and Nicole you also had Niecy, Chad and Pam who, while maybe not the greatest dancers the show’s ever seen, were fun to watch and seemed to be improving each week. And you honestly didn’t know from week to week who was going to go home. Even the last spot in the finals was a crap shoot between Erin and Chad.
Hahaha, who said I was worked up? Excited? What? I made two comments, without personal attacks, about how I felt that Jennifer Grey was more experienced than most people represent. I don’t care much about who wins, I’ve said it before. I have favorites sure, but I haven’t got enough invested in any of them to be truly upset. I said she had aptitude, which other non-experience people have like Brooke Burke and Gilles Marini. I also said she had extensive training in school, although not necessarily in ballroom. Additionally, I’ve seen the moderators here insist upon people using words like “I think” and “in my opinion” since that’s what I’m offering and I’m not trying to present my statement as 100% unrivaled fact. So I THINK that to even jump on that is hypocritical. But to be clear – it is my understanding that she had extensive experience in school and it is my OPINION that it was downplayed by many and in my estimation she may not have won without Derek even though she had a lot of skill and background and popularity because she was presented in an unfavorable light and had injuries to contend with.
Whatever, fig, whatever. You’re going on and on (hence – excited) and using “I think” while making claims as if they’re fact, that you can’t substantiate, so really – who’s the hypocrite??
I should probably have deleted your very first post since you were talking about other posters and what they were claiming, but I didn’t – that’s my fault.
Beka, I agree with you. The manipulation by the producers and judges is ticking me off. I was lukewarm when it came to Katherine and curious about William. Now I am vowing to not vote for either of them if they make the finals.
I think Mark is taking a page out of Derek this season. Even the argentine tango he did with Katherine had similar moves as ones Derek did with Nicole. He would never admit it given that sibling dynamic but guessing he might follow Derek maybe seeing that is his best chance to win.
Excited? I posted a single paragraph about it (and a much longer one in the same post about a completely unrelated topic). I then responded to the comments you addressed to me, as that’s usually how it works on the internet – an exchange of opinions. How is my first comment deletable? What? I’ve been posting here for what – five or six seasons, and I’ve never made a single disparaging remark towards another poster and I was only offering my opinion (which you told me is WRONG, isn’t that against that policy?) based on the information that I have and that I don’t agree with other people that have a differing viewpoint. I didn’t say anyone was stupid, or jerks or anything personal. I am beginning to see here that despite any reasonable discussion of my opinion, I can’t say anything even remotely negative connected to Derek – even though I’ve specifically defended his talents AND he’s one of my favorites – or I’ll be branded as “trouble” and “excited”. I hate to do an internet storm off, because it’s so childish, and in general I enjoy this site as a place to reasonably communicate with fellow fans of the show, but I’ll be sure not to fart in Derek’s general direction or anyone he’s partnered with so as not to incur anyone’s wrath.
Again…you go on again about the discussion instead of having a discussion. We don’t normally allow discussions of other people’s opinions. You opened with saying that everyone was using revisionist history. You can certainly say you think people are wrong – but claiming everyone is using revisionist history but you takes that a step farther than just disagreeing. If you don’t see that, I can’t help you. I see that as much more of an attack than disagreeing with what people are saying.
And it’s oh so easy to fall back on “oh, can’t say anything bad about Derek” – if that were the case I would have deleted you and others a long time ago. I’m a Derek fan, of course I’m going to disagree with you. That’s a separate thing from taking issue with your claims of revisionist history.
ETA: Really, if you DON’T want people to react negatively to your comments, maybe you should refrain from using the following words: Silly, ridiculous, revisionist…should I go find more?? You used “silly” and “revisionist” in your first post. Pretty disingenuous to claim that it’s something else.
@Courtney
Regarding manipulation- thanks for pointing out that DWTS doesn’t count the votes and how much trouble they would get into if they messed with them. I didn’t know about that. It definitely makes it easier to believe in manipulation by the judges.
I still don’t see the point of believing in manipulation (beyond small stuff) while being a big fan of the show. Those two things just don’t go together in my mind. And I don’t see how someone like Len would risk judging by the orders thus compromising his professional integrity and integrity as a person.
I’m not saying I’m 100% sure about this. I just find it kind of sad that so many people who are truly big fans believe in manipulation. It doesn’t make sense. I personally choose to not believe until something comes up as proof. And if that happens I will no longer be a fan.
My take on J. Gray in short- it doesn’t matter IMO how much training a person has had. And speculation is always useless either way. When the person shows up week 1 almost looking like a pro I don’t care if he/she danced all life or just started. I’m REALLY gonna have to like that person in other ways (charisma, chemistry) to vote. There is such a thing as too good on DWTS because a big part should be learning, improving, exploring…
Also, someone can have some training (like Erin did) and not do great right out of the gate. It’s ridiculous to call her a ringer when she semi-sucked. If she came and blew everyone away with her dancing everyone would be screaming ringer. It comes down to what you show and I’m always very critical when someone shows high proficiency right away.
Sasa, on the criteria that everyone was judged by, Erin was a *low level* ringer. Same as Melissa Rycroft. Just because she started out poorly doesn’t negate that she had ringer characteristics. That makes no sense to me. If we started saying, “Oh that danced sucked, she must not be a ringer”, how is ANY different than saying “She’s a great dancer, she must have years of training”?? From where I’m sitting, it’s no different at all.
And again the use of the word ridiculous. :::sigh::: You know, I go back and re-read comments to see why I have strong negative reactions to them (and the people who write them) and NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN they use very strong key words…and one of those words is NOT Derek. As a result, I try not to use those words – I wish all people would try that. I’m not going to start moderating word choice, but I think you should be aware that YOUR choice of words is often what will make people react to you. To blame it on something else is – to use a negative key word – RIDICULOUS.