PureDWTS Season 24 Court Rants: I Don’t Care How “Rabid” Your Fanbase Is, You Won’t Win Without the General Audience Vote!
For the regulars, you probably have witnessed what prompted this rant 😛 For the non-regulars, bear with me: it seems like every season, there is at least one fanbase that just bugs the ever-loving sh*t out of me – and it’s usually because said fanbase decides to obnoxiously remind the entire online DWTS fandom how awesome their favorite is, and how they’re going to win, and how they’re sooooo much better than other contestants, and how much harder they’re gonna vote than all the other fans, how rabid & supportive the fanbase is, etc. Basically – if they can think of something to boast about, they will. Loudly, frequently, and obnoxiously…and the rest of the fans just have to grit their teeth and bear it until the season ends or that particular contestant gets eliminated.
But here’s the funny part: for all the boasting these fanbases do, very seldom do their contestants actually win DWTS. Why? To quote one of my Twitter followers, “If you have to tell us how big it is…it’s probably not that big.” 😉 But seriously, though – there’s a bit more to it than that. You have to take viewing demographics into account, and whether or not that fanbase aligns well with the main viewing demographic; you also have to consider if there’s another contestant on a particular season who perhaps aligns better with the main viewing demographic. The bottom line is this:
You cannot win DWTS if you don’t have the main viewing demographic of the show on your side.
And right now, I can hear the defiant protests of hoards of Harmonizers 😛 Go ahead – you guys can tell us all till you’re blue in the face how “rabid” you are, how “organized” you are, how “passionate & committed” you are. It comes across as a tad insecure, but go ahead. But I’m gonna warn you right now, unless Normani can get demographics on her side (or the show tries to pull off a pimping of never-before-seen proportions), I can almost guarantee she will not win. Let me explain why, using historical data from the show…
First, let’s talk demographics: basically, what does the average DWTS viewer/voter look like? One could probably guess that the general viewing audience skews female, and skews a bit older (the show typically never does spectacular in the coveted 18-34 demographic, but is still pulling in impressive overall numbers – so whoever’s watching, the majority of them are over the age of 34). Here’s something that some of you may find a bit more surprising: politically/ideologically speaking, the show also skews a bit more conservative – in a survey done around the 2012 election, Dancing with the Stars was ranked among the 15 most popular shows for Republican respondents. Also in that top 15? The Bachelor, which may shed some light on why we tend to see so many Bachelors on the show (aside from the fact that they’re ABC family, of course). In another, much more detailed study done just last year, the geographic distribution of popularity of certain shows was examined – and guess where DWTS is most popular: rural areas (which typically skew Republican), and it had a very similar geographical distribution in popularity to Duck Dynasty (Sadie was good – but if the demographics are right, then she was bound to go far in her season regardless). It also got more likes among viewers over 65 than any other show in the study. I personally found the whole study fascinating, and recommend you check it out. But what does it all mean in terms of voting behavior?
Who the average viewer tends to like: Given that we know the biggest bulk of the DWTS viewing audience skews female, middle-aged and older, and conservative, we can actually deduce quite a few things about how they’re likely inclined to vote. They LOVE Olympic athletes, country boys, military servicemen, vocally Christian stars, people with inspiring backstories, and Republican politicians (think Shawn Johnson, Bill Engvall, J.R. Martinez, Alek Skarlatos, Noah Galloway, Candace Cameron, & Bristol Palin). If it’s patriotic and quintessentially “American”, they’re likely gonna vote for it – so NFL stars and racing drivers typically do well, too (Donald Driver, Hines Ward, Mike Waltrip, Helio Castroneves). Given that they tend to skew older, they’re also more likely to favor older television/music stars, and stars from the heyday of soap opera popularity (think Maureen McCormick, Donny & Marie Osmond, Ralph Macchio, and Susan Lucci). So who are they NOT likely to vote for? Given that the general viewer skews older, younger singers/actors/non-competition reality stars/internet stars typically struggle with votes (think Chelsea Kane, Roshon Fegan, Snooki, Audrina Patridge, Cody Simpson, & Hayes Grier, to name a few). Given the aforementioned conservative, Christian leanings, I would also say that anyone that tends towards the opposite end of the political spectrum (the two that pop in my head immediately are Chaz Bono & Carson Kressley) are likely going to struggle to court the main viewing demographic. I’ve also noticed that athletes from less mainstream-American sports (Victor Espinoza, Randy Couture, Sean Avery, & Lolo Jones come to mind) tend to struggle a bit more for votes, especially if they’re up against an athlete from one of the more mainstream sports I mentioned above.
So we know who they vote for…but how do they actually vote? And this is something that I feel the need to explain to the younger-skewing fanbases each year that like to tout their ability to “power vote”: we, the internet-savvy viewers, are the MINORITY. The average middle-aged, conservative-leaning female viewer is not creating beaucoup email accounts to vote with, and they’re usually not surfing the net to find sites like ours to get more info about behind-the-scenes goings-on. The only social media that this particular age group seems to use with any degree of regularity is Facebook, and I generally just see them going on there to comment on their favorites or complain about skimpy costuming & naughty words 😛 They are the ones still voting by phone, and usually only by phone – so they’re only averaging maybe 20ish votes per week, after they use their cell & land lines. And you know what? They don’t need to power vote – they’re still the largest voting demographic by a mile, so if you can win them over, even only 10-20 votes per week from the average viewer is still a HUGE amount of votes when you lump them all together. Circling back to my point about the average viewer not being super internet-savvy, it’s also safe to assume that the bulk of the viewing/voting audience isn’t going to hear about any “scandals” that erupt online (i.e. some pro tweeting something potentially offensive, suspicious screen grabs being circulated on Twitter & Instagram), and thus aren’t likely to be affected to the point of changing their vote because of it – sorry, anti-Bonner squad hoping to blow up his game. He ain’t going anywhere anytime soon, methinks.
Some examples of these principles in action:
How the hell did Kelly beat Zendaya to win season 16??? Zendaya had all those young power-voters!: Probably the most vivid example of voting demographics in action in DWTS history. Z came into the finale as the favorite to win – and she might have actually pulled it off, had the DWTS website not crashed the night of the finale. So all of those accounts her Z-Swaggers created to power vote for her? Rendered utterly useless. Just like in the early days of the show, all the voters were left with only their phones to vote with, and it had the interesting effect of magnifying just who was getting the majority vote and who wasn’t – and as a country girl from a popular reality competition show, it’s kinda easy to see how Kelly pulled out the win over a younger Disney star, regardless of actual dance skill.
How the hell did J.R. Martinez, Noah Galloway, & Alek Skarlatos last so long??? I had never even heard of them before the season started!!! None of the three were really household names when they did DWTS, and all had far more well-known celebs on their respective seasons. The short answer? All three were veterans – and conservatives love vets. In J.R. & Noah’s case, they were both vets with a “courageous backstory” kicker – which can become a pretty tough to beat combo. In J.R.’s case, he was also a pretty good dancer, so from week 1 of his season he pretty much had the MBT in the bag. In Noah’s case, despite not being a fantastic dancer (good for his disability, but I wouldn’t say good, period), I actually think he probably had the votes to win, headed into the finale – but as I recall, he got harshly low-balled in his scores during finale week, and also got a lightweight Nastia treatment with some less-than-flattering rehearsal packages. Towards the end, I recall Alek got the “unflattering edit” treatment a few times, too – I credit Lindsay with turning him into a pretty damn good dancer, so that, coupled with the vet factor, probably made him a voting force to be reckoned with. I think it really says something about just how much voting sway vets hold when the producers have make two of them look like utter douchebags in an attempt to level the playing field.
How the hell did Bristol Palin, Bill Engvall, & Candace Cameron make it all the way to the finals??? They sucked!!! Again, it really has nothing to do with actual dance skill – and everything to do with demographics. Bristol was the daughter of a former Republican Governor & Vice Presidential candidate, and ended up being a marginally-ok dancer. That was enough to endear her to conservative viewers and get some votes thrown her way. Bill was a popular right-leaning comedian from the Blue Collar Comedy Tour – he also managed to have an adorable partnership with his pro. Bada-bing, bada-boom – he’s in the finals. Candace may have suffered from one of the worst cases of stage fright in DWTS history (and her performances almost always suffered as a result), but she wasn’t shy about talking about her Christian values and desire to wear modest costuming. Stage fright be damned – you’re going to the finals.
The WTA/WTF Cha-Cha Debacle of Season 12: The Cliff’s Notes version: nostalgic favorite Ralph Macchio had been extremely popular with the general viewing demographic that season, and ABC family darling (and decent dancer) Chelsea Kane seemed to be struggling with votes as one of the first Disney stars to do the show (and hopefully bring in more of that coveted 18-34 viewing demo). The semifinals rolled around, and suddenly the producers rolled out something called the “Winner Take All Cha-Cha” – basically, a massive 15-point dump awarded to the winner that all but guaranteed they would advance to the finals. Guess who won; guess who got extraordinarily low-balled in his other dances that week and sent home. This was probably the first example of the powers that be having to go to great lengths to fight the power of the general viewing audience – Chelsea couldn’t get the votes, so they manipulated the points in her favor; they couldn’t STOP Ralph from getting the votes, so they messed with his points in order to guarantee that he couldn’t keep up with Chelsea.
Sabrina’s early elimination – TWICE: Sabrina Bryan is a perfect example of someone that was actually a good dancer, but just couldn’t seem to woo the general viewing audience into voting for her. And considering that she came from a music group that held appeal for much younger viewers (but was almost unheard of among adults), it’s not all that surprising that she got sent packing early, TWICE. The first time, in season 5, Sabrina had been pulling in scores in the 26 and above range from week 1; but as soon her score dropped below that in week 6, poof – gone. Then during the all-star season, Sabrina had a near-perfect score (only 1.5 points off) and highest score of all the couples after two weeks of points got combined, and she still got eliminated. She’s a prime example of dance ability not meaning sh*t if you can’t get anyone to vote for you.
The Donny Osmond Phenomenon: This is probably the only instance of a self-proclaimed “rabid fanbase” actually succeeding in getting the win for their favorite – and it’s because his fanbase coincided nicely with the general viewing audience of DWTS. Who were Donny’s biggest fans? Middle-aged women that had swooned over him as wholesome teenagers. What group comprises the bulk of the DWTS viewing demographic? Middle-aged women with conservative leanings. Donny was the prime example of what a “fanbase ringer” is – someone whose popularity coincides so perfectly with the general viewing audience that they’re almost unstoppable. Granted, Donny ended up being a pretty good dancer, so that definitely helped, but man – some of his fans could make the Harmonizers look downright tame, and it makes it a bit scarier because most of them are far old enough to know better than to launch an attack on a new blogger just starting to write about DWTS that dared to put Donny in second place in her initial power rankings. 😯
Why #s of Twitter/Instagram followers & YouTube views really don’t mean squat: I know some of you really have a bad case of uncertainty aversion, and simply want to try to read the tea leaves in any way you can that might help you determine ahead of time who is and isn’t getting the votes, but trust me when I say that there really isn’t much of a correlation between how many Twitter or Instagram followers one has/how many YouTube views one has and how many votes a contestant is actually getting on DWTS. Why? I go back to what I said above: THE INTERNET-SAVVY VOTERS ARE THE MINORITY, NOT THE MAJORITY. Sure, you and your friends may be following Normani on Twitter, voting for her eleventy-billion times on the DWTS website, and watching her quickstep 15 times on YouTube, but what about your mom? Your grandma? The 50-something secretary at your office that always has those weird strawberry hard candies in a jar on her desk? Odds are that they don’t even have Twitter or Instagram, and aren’t quite sure what YouTube is for or how to use it. But if they’re watching DWTS, they probably are calling in at least a few votes per week on their cell and/or land line – and there’s unfortunately not a very good way to measure that (so help me god, if one of you mentions Dial Idol…) At most, Twitter/Instagram followers and YouTube views are more likely to tell you how popular someone is with the younger demographic – the ones actually surfing the web for this stuff. But as I keep saying – the 18-34 year old audience watching this show is not substantial in terms of DWTS. So when someone like Ryan Lochte, who had well over a million Twitter followers when his season of DWTS started, ends up in 7th place, while James Hinchcliffe, who started the same season with a mere 29K followers ends up the runner-up of that season, maybe ask yourself “Should I really be relying on social media to predict who’s gonna do better?”
There are, of course, many other examples of the voting demographics in action – and I’m sure you guys will share yours in the comments, and remind me of a bunch of other instances where we’ve been able to see just how the general viewing audience tends to vote. But how do these demographic principles apply to THIS season?
Who has demographics on their side this season and who doesn’t: Right off the bat, I would say Simone, Rashad, & David are all going to hold appeal for the general viewing audience – and I think David may get an additional boon from being the first major league baseball player the show has ever had…it’s America’s pastime! Bonner may be from a less mainstream sport, but he comes across as a good-ol’ country boy, so that will likely work in his favor. Nancy will probably also do well as a former Olympian AND a nostalgic favorite, and given the overlap in DWTS fans & Bachelor fans I mentioned earlier, Nick could also stick around for awhile. I would have originally said that Charo & Mr. T would probably also do well as nostalgic favorites, but given that a lot of the older fans of the show seemed to be voicing their displeasure on Facebook over Charo’s “outburst”, I think she may struggle from here on out to win them over. T may get some of the nostalgic vote, but I feel like Simone, Rashad, David, Nick, & Nancy are still going to hold more appeal to the main demographic than he is. So that brings me to who will struggle: comedians almost never do extraordinarily well on DWTS (unless their brand of comedy is right-leaning, like Bill’s), so Chris is probably doomed regardless of his dance skills. Normani & Heather’s fanbases are more routed in younger folks, so they may have a bit of an uphill battle – particularly Heather, as Glee was one of the least popular shows among Republicans in both studies, and the fact that a good chunk of the general viewing audience seems to be purists and think that a professional dancer shouldn’t be there. And while the Real Housewives franchise typically ranks high will Republican audiences, I think Erika’s more risque dance style and constant reminders of how “rich” she is are likely to alienate conservative, rural voters.
But demographics are only part of the puzzle, Court! Dance skills are important, too! Didn’t say they weren’t, but some are quick to forget that you have to have both the judges’ points AND the viewer votes to do well on this show – and the judges can only hand out a finite number of points. Sometimes it feels like you’d be better off being just an ok dancer with a lot of appeal within the main viewing demographic, than being a great dancer that has a hard time getting the general viewing audience to vote for you. And if 23 seasons of this show have taught us anything, it’s that the general viewing audience doesn’t always vote for the best dancer…if anything, they tend to vote for the most likeable and entertaining dancer, and whether they’re also the best dancer or not is irrelevant.
So all of that being said…”rabid” fanbases, do you still feel so secure in your favorite winning?
Great points Courtney! I agree. Just because someone has millions of followers on social media, doesn’t really give that celeb an advantage.
Hayes Grier was more concerned with trending on Twitter than getting his Fanbase to vote. The Motavators were pissed Bethany wasn’t posting new vids during her S19 DWTS run. But I digress.
I thought Simone & Sasha was gonna be my team but now? Go Rashad & Emma!!!!
Interesting analysis and pretty much on the money! I will say that the Zendaya Kelly issue was problematic as the entire Eastern seaboard did not get their votes counted on finals night so there’s no real voting evidence. Having said that Kelly did have probably one of the best ever freestyles, because it was so unexpected. Bravo to Derek for that one!
To echo the support, I’m in for Nancy and Artem, Rashid and Emma and David and Lindsay.
This is fabulous! I’m getting so annoyed by all of the talk of how Normani is going to dominate this season because of Harmonizers. There always seems to be one of these fanbases every season, but gosh are Harmonizers loud about it.
I really wish some of these fans would look back over your power rankings and PH’s numbers posts over the years to see that the points you’re making are based on years of observations and results and not a like or dislike of certain pros, celebs, etc.
On another note, I love that you quoted my tweet in this post (even if it was a bit crass on my part)!
I just want to point out, with the athletes they have gotten on the show, that Sean Avery shot himself in the foot by having absolutely zero personality. Yes, hockey isn’t as popular as say baseball or football, but he did himself no favors by being a bit of a primadonna with a Wednesday Adams smile. I think, if the show ever ventures back into the NHL again, they would go with somebody who has a good personality and charisma to win people over.
@Sarah – Agreed, but the whole idea behind this post was to just look at demographics. Even before Sean shot himself in the foot, a good chunk of the viewers seemed to have no idea who he was. Ditto for Victor Espinoza – and Victor was super-likeable. And both were early outs.
Thank you for this post, Courtney. As I said about your post about Heather and her ringer status, you’re a saint.
In regards to your last point about how much dance skills matter, it seems to me that many people don’t understand that the importance of relative dance ability changes as the season goes on. Early on it is actually fairly important because there is a huge range of scores. For example, it would be nearly impossible to eliminate Simone this week because Chris would have to get twice as many votes as she did (in addition to a slew of other people having to get tons more votes than she did), and I highly doubt anybody really gets trounced THAT badly in the votes. However, as we get into the semifinals and finals really nobody is getting 7s and 8s, let alone 4s and 5s, so all of the scores are within a few points of each other. With the scores that close, it’s basically entirely up to the audience vote, and time and time again we’ve seen that the audience generally doesn’t vote based on dance ability. To me, it’s not just that voting matters more than dance ability when we get down to the end, it’s that dance ability really doesn’t matter much at all at the end.
Are there any exceptions to this rule? What about Amber? Or Nicole?
Well said, all around. How would you evaluate the effect of a popular pro? Besides Derek, are there any other pros that could guarantee their star at least a few extra weeks on the show?
@Rachel – There’s always exceptions – and yes, Nicole & Amber would be good examples, because I think they were actually able to endear themselves to the main demographic in the end. I think being partnered with Derek definitely helped, because he seemed to know how to present them in the best light. Plus, he was popular himself – if the main demo didn’t like him, he wouldn’t have won 6 times. In the same token, someone like Evan, who for all intents and purposes should have been like catnip to the main demographic, got edged out – and part of me wonders if it was because his partnership with Anna wasn’t overly warm.
@AR – I think a popular pro can buy you a little more time, but in the end it won’t win the season for you. You still have to make the general audience like you, and dance decently well. Of the pros we’ve got now, I think Sharna, Lindsay, Val, Maks, and Peta probably have enough clout to buy their partners a few extra weeks in the competition, independent of how likeable they are/how well they dance. When they were on the show, Derek, Mark, & Cheryl could do the same.
And just to clarify: this post is just about the demographic situation headed into the show. What the contestants are up against before they even dance, just due to demographics. Yes, it’s totally possible for someone to endear themselves to the general voting audience once the season starts – but this post was more just to illustrate that the playing field isn’t exactly level from day 1, and not just in terms of dance skill. Sure, Heather could really make viewers like her – but I daresay she’s gonna have a more uphill battle than someone like Simone, whose popularity is already firmly within the wheelhouse of the main viewing demo.
Court, I love love your rants! Well done!
Your confusing harmonizers being happy that Normani is living one of her dream and complementing her as cockiness which is UTTERLY FALSE. Harmonizers are a smart fandom, we know she can’t win without winning over the General Audience,(you think we’re annoying right now.. ask Little mix fans.. it can get way worse we have our bad apples but they’re calmer than usual) so when we say “She’s gonna win” or “she got this in the bag” we do it to make her feel confident and know we have her back so she can focus on killing it on the dance floor every week. I feel like your article was kind of rude and a straight F-U to Harmonizers who have grown to love DWTS show regardless if Mani was on it or not (I literally binge watched the past 4 seasons). If ya’ll keep trashing star’s with younger fandoms eventually the only stars on the show will be washed up athletes, and reality stars becasue relevant pop stars won’t want to do the show anymore becasue you’re basically saying if the STAR isn’t White, a country artist, conservative, or an olympic athlete it’s pointless to strive to win the mirror ball…
I agree, the power of social media doesn’t really work for this show. The demographics don’t match. Your example of the number of people who just vote once (phone, Facebook) far outnumber an incoming fanbase for either the celebrity or the pro. It all became interesting when Sabrina Bryan was booted. I asked a few of my friends why they did’t vote for her and the answer was “too much hip-hop”. Also, it was Marks first season and that seems to always be a negative.
Dear lord, Harmonizers’ reading comprehension skills and logic leave a lot to be desired…
*You claim you say “Normani is gonna win” or “Normani has this in the bag” to hype her up? Then why are your fellow Harmonizers saying it on my blog? I can guarantee Normani doesn’t read it. So yeah, the whole claim of it not being cocky – kinda bullshit. You aren’t hyping her up, you’re just being obnoxious to other fans.
*Why is it the Harmonizers’ first line of defense to threaten anyone whose opinion they don’t like? “You think this is annoying, it can get a lot worse”? Who do you think you are, Vito Corleone? I don’t give a rat’s ass about Little Mix, either, and the fact that you think it matters to anyone outside your own fandom is laughable. It’s petty and childish.
*Of course you’re going to interpret the post as “rude” and a big “F-U” to Harmonizers, because you’ve all got the emotional maturity of a hormonal 12-year-old. And honey, the bulk of the Harmonizers I’ve encountered are not DWTS fans – if anything, most of them have been trashing the show. So your whole point about them “growing to love the show whether or not Mani is on it”? Also bullshit.
*”If y’all keep trashing stars with younger fandoms eventually the only stars will be washed up athletes and reality stars, blah blah blah…” Wow, you really think we have that much influence over who gets cast? I’m flattered. 😛
*”You’re basically saying if the STAR isn’t White, a country artist, conservative, or an olympic athlete it’s pointless to strive to win the mirror ball…” Again, I recommend working on your reading comprehension, because I never said that – you (incorrectly) inferred it. I only said people from those backgrounds tended to have fanbases that better aligned with the main viewing demographic of the show. And where did I say you had to be white to win this show? Racist much? But given that Harmonizers only come here to throw tantrums, I’m not really all that shocked that this went over your head.
Have a blessed day.
Right on! You can have millions of followers and have an earlier exit. (Bethany) Unless all those fans vote it doesn’t matter. If TPTB don’t want you to win you won’t they will make sure of it regardless of talent ( Nastia) Look out for negative packages. Been proven emotional wins over talent (Nyle/Paige) Basically the show is manipulated by TPTB Maybe we should stop voting bc it really doesn’t matter
No, Casanova, Kellie’s win is the first and maybe ONLY win in the entire history of the show where the person who the general audience wanted to win actually won and you KNEW she was the actual general audience favorite. It was the closest this show will ever get to one person/one vote. She was the legit winner of the show. EVERYONE got to vote, but ONLY the phone votes counted. So power voters had to suck it and realize that Zendaya was only getting by on power voters – the majority of the audience liked Kellie.
Love the post Courtney. Hope you feel better now that you have gotten this off your chest. When I first read the posts from the “harmonizers” I actually thought somehow the President had found his way to your blog and decided to join the group just to pay with our minds….
You’re oversimplifying, m. People are fond of saying that the judges don’t matter in the end, or don’t matter as much, but it’s actually not true. For it to be true you have to assume that everyone WILL be scored the same or close to the same – and that is not always the case. There have been many instances where there was a nice point spread at the end of the season and rightly so. That’s why we always say, at the end of the season, that the judges either “throw it to the audience” or they “rank” the contestants. Both have been done, but in recent years there’s been more “throwing to the audience” – mainly because they’ve successfully manipulated the show to get all the people they want into the finals. If it ever happens that the audience over rules what the judges and producers want, and the person isn’t getting that many more votes than the person they want to win, you can bet that the scores won’t be close.
What did Amber and Nicole have in common, Rachel? Hmmmm…let me think…. 🙂
OMG! I stand by my comment on another thread about a lot of harmonizers being teens; I’ll amend that to some of them having “the emotional and reading comprehension of children”!
I feel bad for you mods; some of them are already on my last nerve, and I’m sure you are deleting a lot of the junk before it actually hits the comments! (I must say some of it is good for a laugh, although nothing has come close to the “tough row to hoe” being interpreted as calling Laurie a ho; I still chuckle over that one!”
It’s “you’re” Richard.
And your stupid is showing. Just FYI.
Bravo! Well said Courtney. I agree, the average viewer watching the show will chose the winner of DWTS. And as a proud and loyal member of the DWTS key demo, I can say without question that I love Rashad, David, Simone, and Nancy. And I could care less about Normani, Heather, or Erika.
This was shady! But really interesting to read I just wish they would give us an idea of how good they are doing. Because I feel Normani is a different instant than all of other internet social celebrities. Also I think that Normani can eventually win over the demographic with her story about how she had to move from New Orleans because of Hurricane to Houston. Her grandma is a perfect example of the main voting demographic I mean she wrote down the freaking scores of every couple in the show. If she talks more about that she could make the grandmas feel like they can relate like it’s their granddaughter doing the show. Also she has Val who probably gets the most votes out of any pro aside from Derek. I mean if she could get Tamar all the way to the finals with being so far off the demographic with her nasty attitude I’m sure Normani could do it.I will tell harmonizers to tone down. We still think Normani will make it at least top 3. ☺️Go Normani slay the lessors!
I bet you feel great having got that all off your chest Court. Great article, of course long serving Pure posters and general viewers understand the game, but of course when a young star with a young fanbase who have probably never watched DWTS before come along, sometimes they like to run their mouths and need a little educating.
To be fair to the Harmonizers I hope many of them grow to enjoy the show and stick around for future seasons. The show will only benefit if they do considering they make up the key demographic that the show needs to target to stay on the air. I do find it hilarious that it’s only week one and they’ve already declared war on David for getting a better score than Normani on the same dance, and Nick for calling them Fourth Harmony in his package. I just sit back and laugh at all the entertainment that a younger more immature fanbase bring to the table.
Actually Jazz, Tamar appealed nicely to the DWTS demographic, being co host of talk show The Real, no doubt watched by many DWTS viewers. And she wasn’t even meant to be Val’s partner!
Sorry to change the subject, but I hope dancing by the numbers is posted soon. Can’t wait to read.
@Jazz – I am a proud member of the key demo old ladies that votes club and I can tell you that Harmoni will never ever be on my radar. Moving from one city to another because of a hurricane is not enough to win me over. Not now not ever. And btw I’m a grandmother too
See Normani is so irrelevant to me that I forgot what her correct name is in my comment above. #28 Oops!
@Jazz I’m curious about what you mean by “give us an idea of how good they are doing.” If you mean that you wish the show would publish information about who is getting the most votes, how close the voting is, etc., that is never going to happen. At the end of the day, the main goal for DWTS is getting people to watch the show, and they do that in three ways: getting a cast that will be interesting to many people, doing dances and entertainment on the show that people will want to watch, and maintaining suspense about who will win and who will be eliminated each week. As soon as they start telling us who is getting the most votes and how close (or not close) the voting is, the suspense will drop significantly and there will be a whole lot of people who are no longer interested in watching the show.
Omg, I’m sooooo shady – god forbid I actually point out that Normani may actually struggle with votes this season. Really and truly, I’m kinda doing the Harmonizers a favor – I’m bringing it to your attention early on in the season that demographics aren’t exactly on Normani’s (or as Sandy refers to her “Harmoni” – I think I like that better, kills two birds with one stone 😛 ) side, so maybe you guys can alter your strategy to be more beneficial for her. But hey, if you’re wasting your energy complaining about how “shady” and “rude” I am, then you have less energy to create voting accounts with…leaving the door open for one of my favorites to win 🙂
As for Normani’s grandmother endearing her to the masses…eh, that’s pretty peripheral, and if Val keeps shifting focus by making comments about his own voting average getting lowered, people ain’t gonna pay much mind, anyway. And honestly, I think Simone stands a better chance of leveraging a grandma for more votes, given that her grandparents actually RAISED her. As for her story about moving from New Orleans to Houston after Katrina – it’s definitely compelling, but can it compete with Bonner’s near-death experience and recovery?
Thank you for this. Of course, to this fanbase, they aren’t going to believe it/take it to heart/understand it. I fit the demographic to a tee and I found this article so interesting. I mean I knew a lot of it but seeing it all spelled out is fascinating. Thank you. I can’t wait for the numbers post, always my favorite.
I’m part of the “older ladies” category who watches this show (at the younger end of the spectrum!). I’ve never heard of Normani and I’m sure she’s a fine person but my votes are going to Rashad/ Dave/ Nancy/ Simone. Heck, I’ll even throw some votes to Charo and Mr. T because I remember them fondly from my (much) younger years. Heck, when I graduated from 8th grade, we voted The A Team as our favorite show! As for Charo, I remember watching her in the 70’s with my mom and yes she’s annoying but she was quite entertaining to me. I’m also a NY Giants fan (Rashad), I’m a HUGE old-school figure skating fan (Nancy), and I find Dave compelling because of his fish out of water status and his age, and who doesn’t know Simone Biles? She was all over my TV last summer. I’m always a sucker for Olympic Gold Medalists. For these reasons, these folks are the ones getting my votes. And as for Heather Morris, never heard of her either but that’s another story for another day! Have a nice weekend everyone and thank you Courtney for another fascinating article. I love your writing!
To add to #33 above, I also truly like the way Rashad/ Simone/ Nancy/ Dave danced the other night. They all have potential. So it’s not only the reasons I stated in #33 above as the reasons I will vote for them, I also think they are good and I think they’ll all improve. Just wanted to clarify….
Isn’t Simone from Houston as well? That’s awkward, Normani won’t even have the vote of her hometown. They’ll all vote for Simone.
I’m just going to throw this out there and my sorry if I offend any harmonizers. Stupid stuff like that and just being obnoxious like that isn’t going to win anyone over. They act like this was a huge get for the show, she has the most popular pro and that somehow affects the outcome, and that a huge fan base matters….no just no. First off, a lot of people had no idea who she was or her band. That’s just how it is sometimes so bragging about the fanbase of what I will assume will
Be one of those bands that is forgotten the next one direction or band comes around in a couple of years from now is not going to win us over either. Everyone has a really interesting fanbase for the most part this season and if you look at other seasons, band fanbases as strong as they are sometimes still didn’t pull off a win. But then again they weren’t bragging about their strength as a fanbase either. Also, I get that Val is popular but so are a lot of the pros. A popular pro doesn’t mean a lot. There are too many examples to list. I guess what I’m trying to say is: this isn’t the walk in the park you think this is going to be for her and Val and I’m all for loyalty towards bands (bon jovi fan for years) but they will get criticized. It comes with the territory. If you guys can’t handle it then get out of the frying pan.
@M8 – Simone is from the Houston area – specifically, an affluent suburb called Spring. Not sure whether Normani is from more of the metro Houston area or from the suburbs, but I’ve spent enough time down in Houston to say that metro Houston and the suburbs are like night and day – there very well could be a little bit of vote-splitting going on, since the demographics are different.
Tamar also didn’t make the finale. She got 5th place.
Normani is actually no different than many contestants that have been on the show. And her fans are no different than Zendaya’s or other rabid fanbases. They’re just arrogant enough to think so.
Excellent breakdown of the main DWTS voting demographic.
However, while I know that Sabrina had a young fanbase, it’s puzzled me all these years why she was not able to win over enough of the viewing demographic to, maybe not win, per se, but to at least get to the finals, like some other contestants who also came in with non-demographic-aligning fanbases (e.g. Mya, Riker Lynch, Paige VanZant, all of whom made it to second place).
IMO she was quite likeable (sweet, bubbly, exuberant personality, never had anything bad to say) and I thought she was a GREAT dancer. Even if you didn’t think so, her dancing was at least memorable (she was fearless and never played it safe).
It’s been said that…
-It was Mark’s first season as a pro.
But Julianne won the previous season on her first outing. People loved her choreography and chemistry with Apolo; I would say, likewise, Mark had the choreo and chemistry with Sabrina.
-Louis was not a popular pro.
By that time, it was the All-Star season, so people had already gotten to know Sabrina. Would it have mattered that Louis was her partner? Especially since the majority of the main demographic doesn’t go online and know about the things that people don’t like about Louis. And I thought Louis choreographed for Sabrina some demographic-pleasing dances (e.g. Country Rumba, Cinderella Waltz, 70’s Disco, “Black Betty” Quickstep). She got a perfect score and was top of the leaderboard right before she was eliminated, which meant that the audience liked and voted more for EVERY other couple left in the competition besides Sabrina and Louis. It just made me sad that no matter how well Sabrina did, no matter how nice she was, she was going to be rejected by the voters.
– “Too much hip-hop” comment (mentioned by Gunny in #14)
Mark put hip hop in exactly ONE dance – his and Sabrina’s debut cha cha, which lasted all of maybe 10 seconds. All of Sabrina’s other dances, in both of her seasons, were pretty traditional.
Nowadays, hip hop is being infused more and more by the pros, yet it really doesn’t seem to be impacting votes.
-Voter Complacency
Well, I kind of understand this one. But still, not once, but TWICE? Also, I still think Sabrina was much more impactful (whether you see it good or bad) than all of the other “shocking” elims in DWTS history. Other early boots tend to be people who are good dancers but consistently get lost in the shuffle. Sabrina was eliminated after a lower-scoring foxtrot in Season 5 (a 25!), but she had been one of the top 2 scorers each week all of the previous weeks — apparently she had built no goodwill from the audience to carry her through that one off-week.
-Who she was competing against.
I kind of understand this too. The other stars in her seasons had bigger fanbases and fit better in the demographic. However, I still think back to the stars I mentioned earlier — Mya, Riker, Paige — they also had stiff fanbase competition, if they could make it far, why couldn’t Sabrina?
-She came across as “desperate.”
I don’t know what to say about that. I saw nothing of the sort, just someone who was excited to be on the show and was taking learning the dances seriously. I didn’t see her being overly dramatic or overly emotional about anything – she looked to me that she was having lots of fun.
I know Sabrina wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, and despite everything that has been explained by Courtney about the main DWTS voting demographic, I still feel like Sabrina could have/should have made it farther than she did. If anyone has explanations other than the ones I’ve already posted, I’d be interested to read them.
This is how I think the voting is going down. This is just my personal guess. I’m probably far off but this how I predict its stacking out based on the overall GP perception
+ = advantage
*= disadvantage
1) Grandpa Ross-Big baseball fanbase coming off amazing season + falling in perfectly with conservative/republican demographic + just the name alone probs get him more votes
2) Simone- American gold medalist+adorable personality *only reason she’s is not #1 because of gymnast fatigue I’ve seen many people complain that is tiring to have another gymnast with a similar personality as Laurie
3) Nancy- Older American figure skater + Very conservative image +not loud or polarizing + kinda awkward like Candace Cameron
This a toss up for me
4) Rashad- American football player+ great dance * No fanbase due to being free agent +But won over a lot of GP
4) Normani- Huge fanbase (Don’t know how big exactly) + Val as partner * Liked by small portion of GP as of rn
4) Nick – Bachelor Nation *people who hate bachelor +Petas baby story +likeable
7) Bonner – Country white guy + Hot + ladies in 30s/40s love him +Showmance *people feel it’s forced and too sexualized *handgate the fact that in happen in the show many people did caught onto it *People still clinging onto James from last year with sharna
8)Mr T – Nostalgia factor +likeable personality *Forgetable dance *Bad dancer
9) Heather – Glee fanbase *very weak fanbase compare to other *controversy with her dance experience people are turned off because she is pro dancer really *dull cold personality +Maks baby
10) Charo- Nostalgia factor *shes too crazy and her antics are annoying to a lot of older people
11) Erika- Real housewives fanbase *rich attitude *raunchy too sexy for some *unlike guys girls who are sexy don’t get votes because this show is ruled by women
12) Chris- I don’t know who voted for him maybe for being on SNL
I completely agree, Court. I think in some cases, people overestimate the appeal of Fifth Harmony. Outside of the teenager demographic, I’m not sure that the fan base is there, especially if you didn’t watch the US version of X Factor, which based on ratings, I’d say most people didn’t.
As much as they get compared to Little Mix, the important thing to note is that X Factor in the UK was WAY more popular there than X Factor ever was in the US.
Perrie Edwards could go on Strictly Come Dancing, and she’d probably do fairly well if she performed her routines well just because the visibility was much higher than any of the members of 5H. And if another X Factor alum group threw a member on SCD, they’d absolutely destroy whether they could dance or not.
Visibility is a big factor, and if you appeal to just a simple demographic and have really no crossover appeal to other demographics, especially if they’ve never heard of you, it’s going to be hard to get votes.
Thanks for the post, Courtney!
I am a fan of the DWTS fanbase! You guys rock!
Cali, I think Sabrina’s first season on was kind of a perfect storm – she didn’t make much of an impact. It’s not that voters were complacent, I think they just kind of forgot about her – when the show was over, they didn’t remember her. And Mark, while popular, was still somewhat overshadowed by Derek and Maks. It’s also really difficult to compare seasons like “mya made it far, why not Sabrina” – well, because who she’s competing against really does matter. Each season is it’s own microcosm.
I don’t think there was anything “wrong” with Sabrina either time she was on – I just don’t think made any kind of imprint on the show. She was forgettable. She was just…nice.
Absolutely loved the insight! Personally, I’m over those fans. The obnoxious thing is when their fave doesn’t win the first thing they’ll do is cry “rigged.”
I have a hard time accepting that Sabrina was “forgettable,” which is probably why her early eliminations still puzzle me to this day. Sabrina had the highest premiere week score and the first perfect 30 of the season (at that point in DWTS, also the earliest perfect 30 – Week 4), and was among the top 2 scorers each week up til her elim in Season 5, yet she was still forgettable?
Even if scores have nothing to do with it, her dancing was considered forgettable? Mark gave her IMO, exciting choreography and she was a pretty powerful dancer…some viewers even felt she hit the Latin dances too hard – but that still makes an impression (albeit negative). Somehow, I have an easier time understanding if someone just flat-out hated her dancing. But then there would be fans on the opposite side who love her style of dancing.
Jazz, I think your list is fairly accurate, the only changes I would make is that I would swap Nick and Bonner for Nancy and Rashad. The reason being a lot of people who may have voted for Nancy are probably more likely voting for Simone as both attract the same voters who love their Olympians and Nancy may also be at risk of fading into the backround as the season goes on with lots of big personalities on the show. Rashad as you mentioned is a free agent so doesn’t really have big football fanbase, but will have won over a lot of people on Monday which should hopefully help him. Nick has a proven strong, formidable fanbase in Bachelor Nation and Bonner is a Southern charmer, good looking (to some) and falls right snug into the demographics of the show, not to mention this showmance TPTB are forcing upon us. Both of those guys will be getting a lot of votes and should last well past halfway.
In terms of shock eliminations this season the two certainly on the block for me personally are Nancy (if you’d call her a shock as she may fade away as the season goes forward anyway) and Heather (great dancer, questionable support and personality).
You have to remember that the Judges and the viewers are VERY different – one doesn’t agree with the other, probably more often that we realize.
And no one hated her dancing…I just don’t think she inspired any passionate emotion in either direction.
Interesting post. Most sane harmonizers aren’t 100% positive Normani will win. As for me personally, I don’t think she will. I’d be happy with a top 3 finish tbh. Comments like “Normani will dominate the competition” to me are just tongue in cheek. And if they’re being serious then yeah it’s obnoxious. If she wins I want it to be based on merit and not sycophants praising her every move.
Thank you for this post, Courtney, and the one on Heather-the-Pro-Dancer. You, mods, are doing an amazing job per usual. Loved the examples you gave on how the show’s core viewers tend to vote. Totally agree that number of followers on soc med does not necessarily translate to votes. I hope fans of these young girl/boy bands take time to read your excellent post and learn from you, mods. And if her fans have to keep on repeating that Normani is going to slay the competition on this site, it makes me think that they are either trying to convince long-time viewers or themselves.
Wow what a perceptive post! I noticed too in the past that the last one or two dance studios the chmerkovskiy brothers opened were in republican states. I figured they were tailoring to their fan bases from dancing with the stars but wasn’t sure. I was actually always confused as to why Candace Cameron bure got so far in the competition, I’m glad someone was finally able to explain it.
Very interesting post. It did make me feel a bit sad though as your description of the average DWTS viewer almost described me to a tee! Guess I’m getting older! 😀
Courtney,
Love your analysis here – a lot of the stuff you mention is right along the lines of what my wife and I have always thought. But I wanted to ask your opinion about one particular outcome that surprised us – Ryker Lynch vs Rumer Willis. Our group of friends who watch the show (we’re middle aged viewers in New England) thought both were terrific dancers, but overall, thought that Ryker would pull out the win because of his fanbase for his music. Rumer was virtually unheard of when she started on the show. Both had amazing freestyle dances to end their competition. Do you think that Val’s fanbase is what helped push her over the top here? If Ryker had dance with someone else, say Cheryl or Karina, rather than Sharna (whom we also love a lot), would he have been able to pull it off? Or was it her backstory as presented by TPTB that really pushed her over the top? We were honestly shocked when she won, and would love to know your thoughts on this.
Courtney already told you why Riker didn’t win, Andrew – the younger fanbases don’t vote as much or as well as the general audience demographic does. And to that demographic, Rumer is well known as Bruce Willis and Demi Moore’s daughter. No clue if Val’s fanbase helped – I doubt it, as Rikers would be much stronger than his. The reason why we have no clue is because Val has never been given a truly challenging partner. The first season he was on he was first out. And he was an early out with Sherri, who should have been extremely popular with the general audience. Ever since then he’s had ringers plus a lot of producer help.
And to add to what PH said, Andrew, yes, Riker may have done better with Cheryl or Karina instead of his partner, Allison, who is great at what she does, and always eager to learn and improve herself. Sharna was paired with Noah that season, btw, not Riker. 🙂
Adding to what Heidi said about Riker – Rumer also played up her “I was bullied” storyline quite a bit, which I think endeared her to the general viewers. I don’t find it shocking that Riker didn’t win – his fanbase is basically the same “rabid” young fanbase that Zendaya & Normani have, but he didn’t really have a foothold amongst the general audience, which skews older. I thought I made that pretty clear in my post…
Rumer’s story also came along at a time when the issue of bullying was just beginning to become a major conversation in society, which in a season with a lot of personal stories probably appealed more to the core demographic, especially the parents whose kids were/are struggling with that same problem.
She also came across as much more likeable, because I think Charlotte McKinney had a similar story, but it just didn’t resonate for various reasons.
That finale was probably a good example of the demographic and appeal. You had Noah and his amazing story that resonated, but whose limitations in dance ability were clear; Riker, who didn’t have the story, but was probably the best dancer remaining; and Rumer who had a bit of both. No surprise who won, regardless of pros popularity.
You’ll also remember that the producers pushed the hell out of Rumer. As for why Charlotte didn’t resonate – she’s too pretty. There are people in our society who believe that if you look like Charlotte you couldn’t possible have any problems at all. I thought Rumer was beautiful in an interesting way – but clearly, lots of people disagree. They are horrible people, too. Sadly, some women in this society are vile and ugly to women who look like Charlotte and have no pity whatsoever. Rumer appeared more vulnerable, less obviously beautiful and that is also appealing.
Court, I agree. The Harmonizers on social media are getting really obnoxious but she got Val who is obviously the tptb’s favorite golden boy and his fans act like he’s better than everyone on the show but that means nothing. I just think Val is really popular with the general public and that’s why his name was mentioned along with Peta and Maks in the season premiere preview during commercials on GMA. Not even a mention about Kym who actually made her big comeback and not Val, Maks or Peta? Yeah Peta made her return but only after missing for 1 season. Annoying.
Kathy (#16), I’m gonna agree that it does feel pointless to vote when the tptb are just gonna manipulate everything. And I think that already started again this season with this whole handgate bullshit between Bonner and Sharna so I hope their fans are strong enough to vote for them into next week. I will, however, have to say that I used to believe that emotional stories would win over talent like in the case of Nyle and Bindi but now I don’t anymore after James was beaten by Laurie last season. James had an emotional story and freestyle. What’s emotional about Laurie’s story and freestyle? Nothing! That playground freestyle is appropriate for 6 year olds, not 16 year olds! That’s one of the things that got me so angry about James not winning last season. Now even I no longer believe emotional stories will get you far.
Cali (#39), agree! Agree that because you’re new to the show doesn’t mean you won’t win. Cheryl and Jules won their first seasons. I only got to see Sabrina in Season 15 and it’s puzzling she didn’t win. As far as demographics go and comparing her to some others like Mya and Riker…well, Sabrina was a Disney kid and having disney kids on the show was popular so it’s a bit surprising why she hasn’t lasted long as she should have. Wonder why we haven’t had one on the show lately?
Mina (#44) Haha agree!!
PH (#53), right on! Tptb must not think Val is so good as a dancer or choreographer but knew he was very popular with the public and I don’t know why. Maybe because of his looks which is popular with the ladies, the fact that he’s always taking his shirt off or because he’s Maks’ brother. So because he’s so popular and they must think he’s not good, they’re giving him ringers to make sure he stays on for a long time. I don’t think that’s fair to the other pros unless they’re incredibly popular.
I don’t think Val is organically “popular” the way Maks, Derek, Julianne, Cheryl and Mark were back in the day. I think they MADE him popular by constantly pushing him and promoting him. People are sheeple after all.
Any idea why, PH? Why the need to push Val?
Because, Sandy, they were soon to be short a Derek and a Maks. While Derek and Maks came by their popularity naturally, the producers appeared to not want to wait and hope it would happen with Val as well. I can’t think of many more reasons for all the ringers and the pimping – Derek won at LEAST three (really four) of his MBTs sans ringer and took all of his partners except 2 to the top 5. That’s remarkable.
Makes sense. You’d think they’d try to promote other pros who have made it so far quite often like Mark and Sharna. Actually they do a good job promoting Mark but do a terrible job promoting Sharna unless something bad, dramatic or negative happens with her (drama with Antonio, nip-slip, knee injury and now this ridiculous handgate from last week). I believe Mark has been robbed too many times like Sharna has. No wonder Mark decided to take some time off. Lindsay does very well too and they don’t do enough good job promoting her. I guess Lindsay and Sharna aren’t getting promoted or pushed well because they’re ladies. Mostly women watch the show and are more interested in the men.
Just a quick thanks for the responses to my query…they all make perfect sense to me. Thanks for your insight! 🙂
I think the arguments you mentioned were compelling enough reasons to see why Sabrina missed out on a win the first time, because even though Julianne had previously won as a first time pro, she also got lucky in the sense that Apolo was a well known Olympic athlete who was getting key votes for reasons similar to the ones Simone will probably be getting this season, and Mark didn’t have that going for him.
Here’s my breakdown of the top 3 in season 5:
Helio: had the whole American sports figure thing going for him + Julianne choreographing the best freestyle of the finale night
Mel B: The nostalgia factor + the best overall female dancer in the cast
Marie: As later seen with Donny, the Osmond fanbase can be pretty powerful on the show
And looking back on the final 3 of the first few seasons I watched live, the nostalgia factor was pretty strong then, because season 3 had one big name football player + 2 80s-90s teen idols, 4 had Joey Fatone, who like Drew 2 seasons prior, was still well known from his boy band days, and Laila, who happened to be the daughter of famous boxer Muhammad Ali, so the family name alone could’ve gained her enough fans to propel her to the final 3.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at Gabriela, but Helio was not that well known to the general audience – not compared to your average Olympian or football player. He beat out the competition because Julianne gave him great choreo and his personality was just amazing. Everyone loved him. Including me, and I had no idea who he was.
You can’t always point to fanbase as a reason why someone wins or loses – there are too many examples of the actual underdog winning. Julianne got lucky? I think you need to re-watch that season. Julianne (and Cheryl) started the change of how dance was done on this show and the addition of Derek and Mark put a rocket on that change. Not all Olympians are created equally, either – Apolo is not the same as Evan or Simone. Not at all – the latter usually has some form of dance, for one thing. Figure Skaters and Gymnastics are arguably (sort of) the most popular Olympians – most of the rest don’t fare nearly as well on this show. A speed skater? Yes, he was popular (and very cute), but he could have been beaten easily if not for Julianne. There was something magical about that partnership. And Sabrina didn’t just lose – she went out EARLY for someone that was that good at dancing. That she went out early twice tells me that there is an issue there – that people just don’t connect to her for whatever reason. It’s not JUST that she wasn’t an Olympian like Apolo – I don’t believe it’s ever that simple.
For me, Helio was just so darn likable. He was bigger than life even though he was a small man, I think of Roberto Benigni in Life Is Beautiful…there was something so captivating about the way he filled the ballroom. And the guy worked his fanbase, even though it was small it was loyal. Indy is nowhere near as popular as Nascar, and yet Helio made sure all the big guns from the sport were in the ballroom. Like Billionaire Roger Penske who not only owned a multimillion dollar company, Helio raced for Team Penske and this kind of endorsement was big and made the fans sit up and notice. It would be as important as if the Chicago Cubs owner came to watch David…
But we can’t forget what Helio was up against. Mel B, who was a dance teacher in England, just not ballroom, came to win. However, like Normani she was out on tour with her Spice Girls in a reunion tour, so they could have had a bit more in terms of actually being a part of the show. The excuses for being away got old, and MelB’s personality wasn’t that endearing. Then you’ve got Marie Osmond who could have won the entire thing with her terrible dancing… See Donny season 9. But when the judges gave her the lowest score ever for a freestyle she couldn’t make up the deficit. The problem was she was mediocre the entire season, but still got to third because her fans didn’t care how she danced, just that she danced.
Helio had an uphill climb. He had to work a small fanbase and hopefully get those who liked Julianne into voting for them. Back then the Apolianne shippers were so freaking stupid. Nobody else was “good enough” for Julianne except her previous partner, so these people would vote against Helio and Julianne because surprise! Julianne had chemistry with Helio too. So that was a running narrative the entire season, not only was Helio competing against Mel B who was a terrific dancer, and Marie Osmond with a monster fanbase, Helio and Julianne were competing against the ghost of season 4 Apolo and Julianne.